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Thread: Should I convert my rare version Mak 90 or Keep it in the safe? PLEASE HELP!!

  1. #41

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    Now that were getting back into the 922r issue again....I thought that "IF" you were busted and thats a big"IF" ....that if you could prove that you bought it in that configuration you were ok....thats why the ATF doesnt enforce that bs law....cause that cant really prove that you converted it....

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Bullet View Post
    First all MAK-90's where shipped with the thumbhole stock to conform with the weapons ban. A small number of these Norinco Type 56 AKM Clone rifles were manufactured as underfolders with the holes and stampings intact, but assembled and shipped with the thumbhole stock, making installation of the underfolding stock much easier. What happened was they had left over stock that could not be imported so they stamped MAK-90 on the type 56 AKM rifles and put a thumbhole stock on it.

    this is true but I think they stamped 156-s instead of mak90 on the rifle....this was caught midway thru the 1st ban from our buddy G.H BUSH around 1989-90....They were pretty much 56-s on the boat then the ban happend then the importer stamped 1 in front of the 56....Then all imports after that were true mak90's

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by cfpkiller View Post
    Now that were getting back into the 922r issue again....I thought that "IF" you were busted and thats a big"IF" ....that if you could prove that you bought it in that configuration you were ok....thats why the ATF doesnt enforce that bs law....cause that cant really prove that you converted it....
    You sir need to look into the law about this and I would ask that you call ATF to see if they say you are OK as you were not the one that converted it.
    It is up to the owner to know the laws, other then that people would be building all types of stuff and just say that they got it that way....

    If the gun is in violation of the ATF laws and you own it, or have it in your possession you can and will be charged.

    Don't think, know the law. If you do not, call the ATF and ask, it is easy to do. They will even give you a letter to tell you what needs to be done to be on their good side.

    But it is really up to you...
    It is one of those BS laws that could bite you and keep you from owning anymore guns.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phudd View Post
    Am I the only one that thinks "collectible Chinese AK47" is an oxymoron?
    Chinese AK's are the best! Period, end of discussion. Thicker barrels, thicker receivers, and smooth double hook triggers. Everything else China makes might not be worth a crap, but they know how to male some of the best AK's.

    Just ask Al Qaeda what there preferred AKM is. I think most AK's captured are Chinese, next in line is Russian. Best AK clones made, no longer imported, that's why they are collectable.

    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Bullet View Post
    Chinese AK's are the best! Period, end of discussion. Thicker barrels, thicker receivers, and smooth double hook triggers. Everything else China makes might not be worth a crap, but they know how to male some of the best AK's.

    Just ask Al Qaeda what there preferred AKM is. I think most AK's captured are Chinese, next in line is Russian. Best AK clones made, no longer imported, that's why they are collectable.
    Russian is really the best.
    As far as the shooters go I think most say that a Milled Yugo or even the stamped yugo seem to hold up the best other then the fact not many with Chrome bore and barrel.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gadget View Post
    You sir need to look into the law about this and I would ask that you call ATF to see if they say you are OK as you were not the one that converted it.
    It is up to the owner to know the laws, other then that people would be building all types of stuff and just say that they got it that way....

    If the gun is in violation of the ATF laws and you own it, or have it in your possession you can and will be charged.

    Don't think, know the law. If you do not, call the ATF and ask, it is easy to do. They will even give you a letter to tell you what needs to be done to be on their good side.

    But it is really up to you...
    It is one of those BS laws that could bite you and keep you from owning anymore guns.
    not up to me since all my rifles are 922r compliant.......most are arsenals....so I bought them that way
    but here we go...
    Section 922 Paragraph R states:
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
    (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
    (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "


    key word here is assemble...If you bought it that way why is it your fault that it is not 922r compliant?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by cfpkiller View Post
    not up to me since all my rifles are 922r compliant.......most are arsenals....so I bought them that way
    but here we go...
    Section 922 Paragraph R states:
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
    (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
    (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "


    key word here is assemble...If you bought it that way why is it your fault that it is not 922r compliant?
    You can read it that way, several have. You can also read it the way the ATF does.

    And as you pointed out Assemble, is the key word the way you read it.
    As the OP said he did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkp7nut View Post
    I sourced and original Chinese underfolder set + added a Norinco Pistol grip to bring it back to its pre-ban glory.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gadget View Post
    You can read it that way, several have. You can also read it the way the ATF does.

    And as you pointed out Assemble, is the key word the way you read it.
    As the OP said he did it.

    touché

  9. #49

  10. #50
    I'm a little late to the discussion on this, but I figure I'll add my .02. To the OP, it's your gun, do what you want to with it, but I think in the long run if you ever decide to sell it, you will get more money by not making any permanent modifications to it. As for the value, IMHO, what I've seen first hand, is that even though it was a rifle caught in the ban, it is still a MAK-90 and is marked as such. That makes it a $600 rifle, at best. It's uncommon, but not really that rare. I've seen quite a few of these first hand, and have even seen some imported with the entire underfolder stock assembled, in the folded position, with a thumbhole stock installed. Granted, you've installed the underfolder assembly and a Chinese pistol grip, which will increase the value a bit, but not much more than the sum of the parts you added. If you were to change out the gas block and the front sight block, and remove the welded on rear stock tang and touch up the bluing, you'd probably have a gun with a realistic value of $7-800. Again, the main reason is that it is a MAK-90, and is marked as such.

    If it were a true pre-ban Norinco underfolder in excellent condition, it'd be worth around $9-1200, or perhaps a bit more, depending on how much someone was willing to pay for it. I think if you were to decide not to add rails and aftermarket doo-dads to it, and decided to finish "de-banning" it, you'd have a nice clone of a pre-ban style Chinese AK. If I were you, that's what I'd do, and find a WASR-10 or something on the cheap and set it up to run it like you want.


    As for the particular contraband rifle that Mr. Gadget was referring to, they were also in this same configuration, but the obvious difference was that the hole for the autosear was drilled in the receiver with a rivet installed blocking the hole. These were Lebanau imports, and as far as I know or have seen, were the only MAK-90's imported with the "evil third hole".


    As for the 922r stuff, and I hate to bring up something that has already started a bit of arguing in this thread, you are obviously aware of it, and of course ignorance is no excuse for not following the law. Granted, as long as I've messed with AK's, and guns in general, I've never heard of anyone getting hit with a 922r violation, but it is better to be safe than sorry. I've helped many folks build AK's, and I always advice them of the correct US parts count, just so that they can cover their own rear. Assuming it is or isn't, the easiest parts to use to bring that particular rifle into compliance would be a US made FCG(3 parts), a US made muzzle device, and either a US made gas piston or US made magazines or magazine followers/floorplates. You need 6 parts total to have a threaded muzzle device on a stamped receiver AKM to comply with 922r regulations.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gadget View Post
    Russian is really the best.
    As far as the shooters go I think most say that a Milled Yugo or even the stamped yugo seem to hold up the best other then the fact not many with Chrome bore and barrel.
    I have not yet found an AK that can out shoot a milled or stamped chinese. The only Russian AK clones I have had the pleasure to shoot are siagas. They can shoot with a Norinco, but not out shoot it. The thicker barrel on the norinco doesn't get as much of the whip effect as the thinner barrels. Norinco is a 1.5mm receiver, Russian is a 1.0mm. The russians are excellent, as they invented it, but the Chinese perfected them. The old Yugo's imported in the 80's are good AK's, not the new single stack welled out for double crap PAP. If you want to talk shooter in a mag fed 7.62, it's a vz58, a real one, not that century vz2008 crap.

    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Bullet View Post
    I have not yet found an AK that can out shoot a milled or stamped chinese. The only Russian AK clones I have had the pleasure to shoot are siagas. They can shoot with a Norinco, but not out shoot it. The thicker barrel on the norinco doesn't get as much of the whip effect as the thinner barrels. Norinco is a 1.5mm receiver, Russian is a 1.0mm. The russians are excellent, as they invented it, but the Chinese perfected them. The old Yugo's imported in the 80's are good AK's, not the new single stack welled out for double crap PAP. If you want to talk shooter in a mag fed 7.62, it's a vz58, a real one, not that century vz2008 crap.
    Believe it or not, I've got several kit built AK's that will shoot 2-3" groups at 100 yards. My most accurate 7.62x39 AK is a polish underfolder kit build, but I have Romanians that will consistently outshoot commercially available imported AK's. I can tell you first hand that there seems to be a higher standard of quality on military built parts than there is on parts intended for the US civilian market.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCshooter26 View Post
    I'm a little late to the discussion on this, but I figure I'll add my .02. To the OP, it's your gun, do what you want to with it, but I think in the long run if you ever decide to sell it, you will get more money by not making any permanent modifications to it. As for the value, IMHO, what I've seen first hand, is that even though it was a rifle caught in the ban, it is still a MAK-90 and is marked as such. That makes it a $600 rifle, at best. It's uncommon, but not really that rare. I've seen quite a few of these first hand, and have even seen some imported with the entire underfolder stock assembled, in the folded position, with a thumbhole stock installed. Granted, you've installed the underfolder assembly and a Chinese pistol grip, which will increase the value a bit, but not much more than the sum of the parts you added. If you were to change out the gas block and the front sight block, and remove the welded on rear stock tang and touch up the bluing, you'd probably have a gun with a realistic value of $7-800. Again, the main reason is that it is a MAK-90, and is marked as such.

    If it were a true pre-ban Norinco underfolder in excellent condition, it'd be worth around $9-1200, or perhaps a bit more, depending on how much someone was willing to pay for it. I think if you were to decide not to add rails and aftermarket doo-dads to it, and decided to finish "de-banning" it, you'd have a nice clone of a pre-ban style Chinese AK. If I were you, that's what I'd do, and find a WASR-10 or something on the cheap and set it up to run it like you want.


    As for the particular contraband rifle that Mr. Gadget was referring to, they were also in this same configuration, but the obvious difference was that the hole for the autosear was drilled in the receiver with a rivet installed blocking the hole. These were Lebanau imports, and as far as I know or have seen, were the only MAK-90's imported with the "evil third hole".


    As for the 922r stuff, and I hate to bring up something that has already started a bit of arguing in this thread, you are obviously aware of it, and of course ignorance is no excuse for not following the law. Granted, as long as I've messed with AK's, and guns in general, I've never heard of anyone getting hit with a 922r violation, but it is better to be safe than sorry. I've helped many folks build AK's, and I always advice them of the correct US parts count, just so that they can cover their own rear. Assuming it is or isn't, the easiest parts to use to bring that particular rifle into compliance would be a US made FCG(3 parts), a US made muzzle device, and either a US made gas piston or US made magazines or magazine followers/floorplates. You need 6 parts total to have a threaded muzzle device on a stamped receiver AKM to comply with 922r regulations.
    Good Post! Here is the evil third hole pic.


    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

  14. #54
    From what I remember the Yugos I have and most the others I have seen are 1.6mm, the Russians are 1.6 for there AKM.

    THe russians also make some killer Milled and Stamped guns. Had the chance to shoot some semi and full. But for the money, the numbers out there and the parts, the Mak90 and other guns from China shine due to the Chrome lining.
    I think Spud made many a 1.6mm for the gun builds.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCshooter26 View Post
    Believe it or not, I've got several kit built AK's that will shoot 2-3" groups at 100 yards. My most accurate 7.62x39 AK is a polish underfolder kit build, but I have Romanians that will consistently outshoot commercially available imported AK's. I can tell you first hand that there seems to be a higher standard of quality on military built parts than there is on parts intended for the US civilian market.
    Yes the AK's meant for the Military are the best ones, as those arsenals know how to build them. The Preban Norincos where the built at the same arsenals as the real AK's, and use the same parts as the real Type 56 AK of course minus the FA.

    MY best AK is a Norinco, and it is a 2 moa with Brown Bear all day, I can get a few 5 shot groups in just under 2 sometimes. The Arsenal SGL 21's I have seen are also 2 MOA capable, but it is a civilian conversion, so some AK snobs rule it out. My SAR 1 will shoot nice 2-3 moa, much better than the single stack converted WASR junk Lucky to get 4-5. I could have got a nice Yugo a few months ago for 400, I am still kicking myself! I have been wanting a polish underfolder, but I want a lot of stuff I can't afford right now LOL. My list keeps growing.

    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Bullet View Post
    Good Post! Here is the evil third hole pic.

    Sometimes not to be seen on that side as they did not do the full drill, or welded it up.
    Seen some that had the safe full, semi, markings and a pin in place to keep the lever on the selector from dropping all the way down. The pin was drilled, placed and tack welded in to the rec. But the left side was not finish drilled. Or they welded grind before finish and not to be seen as this picture.
    So needed to see the right side for markings.
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  17. #57
    I think the legal issues have been covered so I'm not going to bother with them, but I came here to say this:

    The AKs that can be legally purchased on the U.S. market for thousands upon thousands of dollars that are considered collectors items is a concept beyond my comprehension. That very same weapon that would sell for $10,000 here in the U.S. would be worth a handful of 9mm ammo or a goat in a Middle Eastern country (I "traded" a guy in Iraq his AK...could have taken it from him but tried to compensate. 15 9mm rounds was "fair" to him). For that reason alone I will never consider any AK-47 to be a collector's item; they are a tool, a tool that stands up to a TON of abuse. Sounds like you have a solid shooter, so I say get a rail and an optic and shoot the crap out of that thing. Unless you are competing in some AK only class, the guys shooting 300 Blackouts and 5.56mm are probably going to have the edge.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gadget View Post
    From what I remember the Yugos I have and most the others I have seen are 1.6mm, the Russians are 1.6 for there AKM.

    THe russians also make some killer Milled and Stamped guns. Had the chance to shoot some semi and full. But for the money, the numbers out there and the parts, the Mak90 and other guns from China shine due to the Chrome lining.
    I think Spud made many a 1.6mm for the gun builds.
    Russians used 1.0mm sheet metal. Most of the East Block guns USSR, Hungarian, Polish, etc. had 1.0mm thick receivers except Yugos. Chinese also used 1.5 sheet metal. Some very from 1.5 to 1.6.

    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B3XCIB View Post
    I think the legal issues have been covered so I'm not going to bother with them, but I came here to say this:

    The AKs that can be legally purchased on the U.S. market for thousands upon thousands of dollars that are considered collectors items is a concept beyond my comprehension. That very same weapon that would sell for $10,000 here in the U.S. would be worth a handful of 9mm ammo or a goat in a Middle Eastern country (I "traded" a guy in Iraq his AK...could have taken it from him but tried to compensate. 15 9mm rounds was "fair" to him). For that reason alone I will never consider any AK-47 to be a collector's item; they are a tool, a tool that stands up to a TON of abuse. Sounds like you have a solid shooter, so I say get a rail and an optic and shoot the crap out of that thing. Unless you are competing in some AK only class, the guys shooting 300 Blackouts and 5.56mm are probably going to have the edge.
    Yeah some places in Africa, 3-4 chickens will get you a real AKM.

    When the 2nd Amendment speaks of a “well-regulated militia,” it means local groups of individuals operating to protect their own families, homes, and communities. They regulated themselves because it was necessary and in their own interest to do so. The Founders themselves wrote in the Federalist papers about the need for individuals to be armed.

    Gun control makes people demonstrably less safe--as any honest examination of criminal statistics reveals. It is no coincidence that violent crime flourishes in the nation’s capital, where the individual’s right to self-defense has been most severely curtailed.
    (Ron Paul)

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