The New 585HE, Info-

Discussion in 'Long Guns' started by hubel585, Jun 8, 2014.

  1. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Introducing myself and our work.. Ed Hubel from MI.
    I am a big bore researcher, gunnut, and wildcatter,
    and have posted our work around the net.
    Under the name of the thread, 12ga From Hell
    I have worked on 12,10,8,4ga, wildcat 700s and up and
    down. And have tested long 28, 24, 20ga cases.
    Favorite wildcat that is gaining numbers is the 585 Hubel Express.

    Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
    A nicely stocked Ruger #1, nice dark grained stock.
    It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
    Built by his smith who has a reamer.
    Guys there can get cases from Bertram.

    [​IMG]

    There are 3 barrels of cases in US.. Here is picture of 585HE in
    nice stocked Enfield..First one in FL. First 585HE in TX guy
    has it on Y-tube, Second picture is barrel of cases.
    And they are now making another dozen barrels of cases.Ed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
    can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
    loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
    years pay.

    Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for
    example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
    once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
    last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
    There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
    caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found..
    Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
    with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge

    [​IMG]

    Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
    We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made.
    The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
    metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
    rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s
    extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
    Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.

    [​IMG]

    Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
    Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
    It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
    To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases
    in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.

    The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
    weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
    loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
    out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it.

    [​IMG]


    Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. PH mag box feeds the
    585HE cases as it comes from mfg. Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  2. myst173

    myst173 Member

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    Man, it's always great to see a new squirrel gun hit the market.
     
    protonboy likes this.
  3. Inebriated

    Inebriated Active Member

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    You did the 12ga from hell, did you not?

    Very cool. I've got a trip to northern Idaho coming up, I'm gonna need to borrow this. You know... for bears.

    Send plenty of ammo though. :D
     
  4. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Yes a 650 gr 585HE bullet at 3000, good for 1000 lb squirrels and big bears,

    Yep, I'm one of the 12ga FH developers and experimenters.Ed
     
  5. Pumpkinslinger

    Pumpkinslinger Not Subscribed

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    Hi Ed! I recognize some of this!
     
  6. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    We hope many more folks get on the big bore kick, it is great fun.Ed
     
  7. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
    stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
    don't break under heavy loads.

    And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
    recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
    too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
    using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
    They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
    And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
    a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.

    [​IMG]

    We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
    we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
    with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture.

    [​IMG]

    And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets
    under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
    Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  8. ronn47

    ronn47 Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    Ed,
    We need a video of the black powder pellet load being fired.
    Nice guns.
     
  9. mckenziedrums

    mckenziedrums Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    Ok.. that black powder pellet idea is cool. What's that chrono at?
     
  10. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    With 4 pellets 440 gr 2600 plus..

    I'll be getting videos of the black smoke, and also recoil and
    muzzle flash of the real hairy loads, in a few weeks.Ed.
     
  11. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches.
    The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of
    58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine.

    Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce
    the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass.
    We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also.

    [​IMG].

    Our 585HE has same overall loaded length as a 505 Gibbs.
    Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...Any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed
    the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc,
    and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions where length is not a factor..

    First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.

    Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.

    Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed

    [​IMG]..


    [​IMG]


    .[​IMG]..
     
  12. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
    over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
    sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

    First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
    4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
    and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
    We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
    them and put their own headstamp on..

    Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
    holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
    shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

    Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
    a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
    Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
    high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
    belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
    uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
    and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
    These are not old style balloon head junk cases.

    [​IMG]

    We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
    Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases
    extract at the highest pressures.
    Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  13. MuShu Gordon

    MuShu Gordon Vendor : Guardian Dragon Vendor Club Subscribed

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    Now you have got me wanting one of these bad boys. Maybe after I get some other things paid down I can purchase one of these for ground hogs and squirrels.
     
  14. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    They will work for charging ground hogs, as well as

    anything else charging.Ed
     
  15. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
    cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
    long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

    We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
    showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
    a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
    same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
    years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
    done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
    corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
    process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.

    [​IMG]

    Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns,
    without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
    Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..

    [​IMG]

    And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
    oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
    harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper
    strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
    and heading operations in the mfg process.
    Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
    no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.

    [​IMG]



    We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
    Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
    Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
    that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.

    [​IMG]

    WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
    Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
    Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.

    [​IMG]

    The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
    into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
    and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
     
  16. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

    [​IMG]


    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Joe30045

    Joe30045 Registered Member

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    True happiness would be to have one of those in a belt fed action......
     
    Stick likes this.
  18. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Yes be a real terror at a 700-1000 rounds a minute,
    or faster in chain gun. And only uses half as much
    brass to make them compared to bmg. Ed
     
  19. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    In the process of checking out all bullets/slugs in 585 size caliber,
    it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH.
    Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load.
    And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs.
    Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work. And they
    have big supply of barrels, so we don't wait like for 12ga FH ones.
    Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore.
    And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending
    10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr at 2200 fps not too bad.
    And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of
    lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones..

    First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga
    BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies.
    We make them cutting BPI brush wads in half, without the cushion.

    [​IMG]

    Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets
    of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH.
    Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will
    still shoot in 585HE also.

    [​IMG]

    Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long,
    real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases.
    Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr
    bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount
    over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic
    loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also 900gr, 1000gr, 1200gr, etc.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  20. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Here is 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
    That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed

    [​IMG]

    Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
    Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
    others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
     
  22. MuShu Gordon

    MuShu Gordon Vendor : Guardian Dragon Vendor Club Subscribed

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    Oh My MuShu. MuShu Wants. Next year, or the following, when I have enough money to tackle another gun building project. I will be purchasing a 585HE. I want it for squirrel hunting.
     
  23. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases a guy got loaded loaded,
    They are CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints.
    This bullet is turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. .
    [​IMG]
    Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking
    in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3" 24ga brass case running 35,000 psi,
    a moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power
    as some loads in the 458Win. Ed
    [​IMG]
     
     
  24. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    With minie bullets at 3000 should stop charging squirrels..


    Here is a different look at 585-458 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
    It holds lead as well as jacketed.
    [​IMG]
    Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.
    [​IMG]
    I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is
    they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more
    cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug
    is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is
    opened for the bigger case, as the extractor
    pushes the case to the left.
    [​IMG]
     
    Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
    here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.
    The here being the US, and with our group here, also having
    barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with barrels in stock,
    CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, shops with # 31 shellholders.
    And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .
     
  25. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
    PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
    cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
    being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
    like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

    And in a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel can get 650gr
    spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
    3 times as much powder. 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
    Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
    where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
    steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.

    [​IMG]

    I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
    Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
    cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
    inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
    Ruger 77 handle, one on the right . Something even a novice
    like me can do.....

    [​IMG]

    A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
    ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
    to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
    585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  26. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
    here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
    bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
    but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
    with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
    in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about
    mach 4 with a top load..
    [​IMG]
    Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
    It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
    sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
    7th blanks on bottom are straight 1.375" 585 regular twist blanks.
    One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed
    [​IMG]
     
  27. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
    It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
    hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
    hard as copper jacketed softs. These have a flat base, and
    fairly streamlined..
    [​IMG]
    But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
    can be soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
    of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
    Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Ed
    [​IMG]
     
  28. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    In Canada there are 3 guys there now setting up 585HEs,
    and one setting up 24ga FH. Another friend setting up a 585HE
    handed out a bunch of cases and info sheets at the SCI convention.
    We are getting some more reamers made. Some more dies sent
    here. Another pallet load of cases coming.
    Here is picture of a light spitzer bullet in the 24ga FH case,
    will work in 585 also. Good for hunting and medium range
    target work.
    [​IMG]
    Here is picture of 585HE we did in the FBW with regular two
    piece stock.We put a tenon on the forearm to wedge into the
    front of the action below the barrel and a tight barrel band
    on the front. Ed
    [​IMG]
     
  29. hubel585

    hubel585 Registered Member

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    Here is comparison of our 585HE and Trex case, and while
    we have barrels of cases and more coming and many available
    in stock in AUS, many are finding Trex cases scarce...
    [​IMG]
    Here is picture of a neat falling block that could work for our
    585HE with little work, the Wickcliff.
     
    [​IMG]
    Here is picture of the singlestack mag box we built for Enfields
    fitted to the bottom of BBK action.Very little changing and
    it fits a lot of different actions, as a fixed magazine, with its
    own feed lips,and we load from the top.Ed
    [​IMG]
     
  30. RedneckFur

    RedneckFur Well-Known Member

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    I remember following your thread on the 12ga rifle from hell on some other forums! I'm glad to see that you're still at work building bigger, badder rifles! Keep up the good work!
     

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