Sweet write up man. I wish I had the time to do this stuff. So keep it up so I can live through your words. LOL

 

I'm starting to get addicted to training. I'm probably going to be single real soon. lol

 

LOL. I wouldn't trade my wife and kids(well kids at least lol) for anything, but if I was single I would be doing a lot of these classes.

 

Eh. I'd trade my wife for Chris costa. Lol.

 

I'd trade your wife for him too!

 

very good write up and thanks for it.

 

Ok so I got to ask. All the crap talked by Hackthorn and his cronies, is it true?????

You know my view on it, but in your Hackthorn AAR he was openly talking crap about Chris and (others) like him.

I feel that Chris is a great intermediate skills teacher, but he is a numbers guy, high student to instructor ratio.

 

Nice write up. I took his carbine course a few years ago, just when he rolled out Ludas. I'll be honest John Boyette took some time with me during lunchtime during the class and that has helped me more than any of the "techniques" have. Being a perishable skill, if you don't practice it you lose it.

 

I agree 100%. One thing I like about John's classes is that he'll work with you till you get it. It's very common these days for instructors to steam roll through the curriculum and you can get lost very easily.

 

Ilivas,

I should of done a better job in my above post. I think both guys are great instructors and we have many more in the market now. All have something to offer and I think when you touch the magic of a national level trainer, it adds some flare to what everyone does.

Keep up with the AAR's.

I will be taking more classes in 2015, we will need to coordinate at some point.

John

 

Ilivas,

I should of done a better job in my above post. I think both guys are great instructors and we have many more in the market now. All have something to offer and I think when you touch the magic of a national level trainer, it adds some flare to what everyone does.

Keep up with the AAR's.

I will be taking more classes in 2015, we will need to coordinate at some point.

John

I'm all for it. I'll be taking more classes from you as well.

 

As with all instructors, what are you willing to pay for? Pay $500 and go through 1,000rds or learn the same fundamentals for 1/2 costs and ammo. I can't tell you how many folks that have taken my classes and other "pro's" across the nation only to tell me they didn't learn anything really different. Sure I could pay and take guitar lessons from Slash or a local dude in Raleigh. There's only one way to play a song, chord charts are the same..........

 

Paul,

Trashing a topic that is about one of the most well known instructors in our time is not wise.

I took the lvl 2 carbine and I will say I learned some. Not earth shattering stuff but enough to better my student base and myself. I do not know it all and professional development is critical to stay up to speed with the times and not get stale.

Chris Costa for all he is worth, all the love - hate he draws, people need to recognize the market plan if you want to make training a well paying job. He is more successful as a businessman then most and ranks up with the Vickers and the Lamb's for a business model to follow.

As you know, it takes close of 10,000 strokes to be proficient at a single task. Some of these high round count courses for people like me who have the skill pretty well set; gain a lot from these type of courses. So do the active duty guys with in 3rd group and LEO's that came to this course. Yes I can learn and do with every shot. But sometimes you need to burn down the house over 3 days to really see the fail points in your gear and firearms.

Is the Level 2 course for the new guy? nope thats why its a level 2 course. But a level 1 course at 3 days, 900rnds AKA 300rnds (10 mag's) is not alot of training in a day. In my carbine I can do 500rnds in 4 hours if you want to do some simple drills that take up to 90rnds to complete. But you know this already for quality... I hope...

Do I think Chris is the end all be all in firearm training? no I do not. But he has set a course that many copy and fill my classes to un-learn the crap others put out. So it keeps me busy and god knows I have had to fix alot of people from trainers her in NC for the BS that people copy and regurgitate as the gospel.

John

 

Paul,

Trashing a topic that is 2.5 years old and about one of the most well known instructors in our time is not wise and will not do your training dept any good.

It makes you look like a tool.

I took the lvl 2 carbine and I will say I learned some. Not earth shattering stuff but enough to better my student base and myself. I do not know it all and professional development is critical to stay up to speed with the times and not get stale.

My teachings and my student body does not need me to trash people, I stand on my own merits. Chris Costa for all he is worth, all the love - hate he draws, people need to recognize the market plan if you want to make training a well paying job. He is more successful as a businessman then most and ranks up with the Vickers and the Lamb's for a business model to follow.

None of them trash others in the public anyhow.

BTW, the unit guy you push a lot will educate you that it takes close of 10,000 strokes to be proficient at a single task. Some of these high round count courses for people like me who have the skill pretty well set; gain a lot from these type of courses. So do the active duty guys with in 3rd group and LEO's that came to this course. Yes I can learn and do with every shot. But sometimes you need to burn down the house over 3 days to really see the fail points in your gear and firearms.

Is the Level 2 course for the new guy? nope thats why its a level 2 course. But a level 1 course at 3 days, 900rnds AKA 300rnds (10 mag's) is not alot of training in a day. In my carbine I can do 500rnds in 4 hours if you want to do some simple drills that take up to 90rnds to complete. But you know this already for quality... I hope...

Do I think Chris is the end all be all in firearm training no I do not. But he has set a course that many copy and fill my classes to un-learn the crap others put out. So it keeps me busy and god knows I have had to fix alot of people from trainers her in NC for the BS that people copy and regurgitate as the gospel.Most of them no longer post here on CSC or/both NCGO because of the loss of street cred as a quality teacher of the craft.

Tell that unit guy to hit me up, I have some peep's I work with he might know and want to reconnect with.

John

Wow really John, calling me a tool? You call Larry Vickers out in post #10, really? http://www.carolinashootersclub.com...ub.com/threads/rifle-sling-suggestions-for-ar-15-and-ar-10.182037/#post-1576499 I wasn't trashing Chris, I never said his name, he hadn't even crossed my mind. I had received this from the NC Justice Academy, dangerous yet effective? Who's qualified to teach this? Some will watch this or read it and next weekend try teaching it. http://monderno.com/training/temple-index-real-world-versus-range/
I can' t post the email content I received from the training department. I've never taken any of Chris's classes so I'm not qualified to make statements. I know those who have and will leave it up to them to fill in the blanks if they so desire. It was an across the board statement. You even said he's not the end all be all. Far as I can tell you have more combat experiences with the 82nd than he does. So if you were a Apache pilot and had combat hours under your belt, I would take a flying class from you vs someone who has 500 hrs flying out of Franklin County Airport. My biggest concern is the seemingly large increase of poorly qualified instructors. I'm talking about people you find locally or across the nation that are tactical enthusiasts. Flash pan websites, videos pumping cool rock songs. What I'm saying is that at some point there has to be someone with real experience in the loop and that if we get to far away from it we are only teaching theory. To me this is like someone reading a book on warfare and then being put in command of a division of the US Army. Sure the book probably taught sound principles and theories, but a knowledge of those alone don't make someone qualified to command in a modern war. Sure combat experiences and 28 confirmed kills as an Army Sniper doesn't make one an expert at coaching a precision rifle shooting team, but I sure as heck would pay extra and drive a little further to take that class vs someone who's only experience was with a NRA course or learning on YouTube then throwing up classes. Person still needs to have people skills and coaching ability. Obviously this doesn't apply to Chris.

I will say, I do like the comments on other threads on CSC, about learning what you can from instructors. Each may have something to offer. For instance a competitive shooter is probably an expert and weapons transitions and shooting on the move. He can probably offer a lot of great instruction to people on that subject. But that still doesn't qualify him to teach military and SWAT style team tactics. This is what is what concerns me about some of these civilian instructors. I'm perfectly fine with them teaching things that they may be good at. They can be good at things they can practice on the range.

If an average joe civilian instructor (with no military or LE experience) is excellent at shooting a stationary target while moving behind cover, let him teach that. why? Because he could have actually shot a stationary target while moving behind cover.

Should the same instructor teach a class entitled "Dynamic Entry"? No! Why? Because this guy has never been on an entry team clearing houses! They aren't qualified.

 

As with all instructors, what are you willing to pay for? Pay $500 and go through 1,000rds or learn the same fundamentals for 1/2 costs and ammo. I can't tell you how many folks that have taken my classes and other "pro's" across the nation only to tell me they didn't learn anything really different. Sure I could pay and take guitar lessons from Slash or a local dude in Raleigh. There's only one way to play a song, chord charts are the same..........

I will say that Chris runs a successful business for a reason. I go to different instructors because everyone is different, and I get so see different perspectives and view points. Eventually, everyone will hit a wall or plateau of some sort and one instructor may be able to help me over come certain plateaus while another one will help me in other ways. I drove to FL to train with him, and it was worth it, he is quite knowledgeable. For example, Chris, and Vickers have a focus on the fundamentals of shooting which is great. While someone like Pat McNamara and Bob Vogel will focus on the mental aspects of shooting, and how to make yourself better more efficiently.

I've never taken your classes, but I can guarantee any of your students would benefit from seeking instruction from other trainers, as would any other trainer's students out there. There is no one stop shop for all firearms training. By sticking with only one instructor, you're only limiting yourself. You may even benefit from taking one of Chris' classes as I feel that every instructor should go out there and take other good instructors classes so they know what's going on in the industry, and what works for their classes and how to better them. Your lesson plan should be constantly evolving the same way to find out what works, and what doesn't. If you don't move with the industry, you get left behind. Many of the better instructors I know take 2-3 classes a year from other national level instructors to stay on top of their game.

Combat or military service doesn't make a good instructor, does it help? Sure, but it's not necessary. I heard this from Vickers who is a former Delta. Hackathorn for example, to my knowledge doesn't have any combat experience, but he's a successful instructor. Most of these guys are training civilian tactics like proper CCH, not military tactics anyways so they will differ anyways. Bob Vogel is another... He's a world champion shooter with more skill than anyone I have ever seen in person, and I guarantee he can make anyone a more accurate and faster shooter. Accurate and faster is always better.

 

I've mentioned many times I train annually around the country. Even with some of the names already mentioned. I never said they weren't great. I simply mentioned one doesn't have to spend a glob of money to get quality training. I'm a former distinguished honor graduate of the Army's Sniper school and the FBI's Advanced Marksmanship program. I just took a long range class in September 2014. Never stop learning.
But I get called a tool for expressing my views yet that same person calls out another professional instructor here on csc in another thread and that's okay? What ever. Life goes on.

 

I was reading over this and remember a video I had seen, and I have to say id way rather be called a tool by John Boyett then be slammed and called a rude jack ass by James Yeager, just saying here it is, at 15:40 he goes in to detail.

 

Dude,

That is funny as hell, now I am part of a Yeager Video.

He is right too I did have the ND and talk about it in my classes when needed. It was one of two I ever had. No on is perfect and I broke one of the four gun rules. One way to learn by mistakes you make. I find it funny he remembers that from 2012. But the part of comparing myself to Chris, I never did nor would I as he says that's unprofessional.

John

 

Quote from Larry Vicker's. "If you're around guns long enough you'll have an ND it's only a matter of time"

I always make it a point to ask instructors if they've had ND's. Lol and Most all have admitted to them.

 

Got ya, like I said I don't know y'all I'm new to the forum and saw the discussion and the video he had, I would find it unprofessional to offer classes to a class while attending another mans class, but sir that is just me as a recreational shooter, it was just apparent that it stuck out in his mind during Costas class that you were the one soliciting your class at half the price, he says it in the video, not a student but you. I don't think a story that's now starting 3 years old would be fabricated by Yeager, now that would be bad for business.

 

I agree fully with you and Yeager it would be a low ball thing to do. Hell I was one of two sponsors for the class in question that he came too for Chris here in NC. My staff performed the RO' duties at that event and I was able to provide the location for the class. If we ever get to meet you would know that's not how I conduct myself.

On to the first part of this internet dust up, I get tired of people trampling all over Chris or others American Dream. So he wants to train at 3 days 1000rnds or even 1 day 2000rnds. Why would anyone care but the people that find value in it and attend? I agree about Chris and others at his level that partly that drives his training for students is all about "touching the magic" its true and it happens.

On the ND that I did, the two biggest lessons that day I will never forget are:

1. I pushed myself past my abilities that day and that was not a good thing.
2. The basic firearm safety rules when applied work. When you break 1 rule you will have a ND (like me) if you break 2 rules you will have ND and someone will get hurt if not killed.

These two lessons I took too heart and share with my students all the time.

John

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here. John works for Warsport. Warsport is one of Costa's biggest sponsors. I figure if anything John would promote Costa's business.

 

You are correct at WarSport we do support Chris and his training. He also supports us.

To the body of CSC readers, (not directed at ilivas)

When I come on CSC I walk a tight line between working at WSI, owning a company, TAG and being a honest member here on CSC and not upset all the apple carts I deal with.

I will tell you that I am about sick of people in the training world trashing what Chris does. This is not because I am a Chris fan boy because I am not. I am this way because I am sick of all the jealous reactions about him and Travis or even others that (made it) in others eyes when they struggle in some way. It seems like the only way people think they can get ahead is by stepping on others in some way. Both Travis and Chris did well at M.P.D., then on the road as solo acts. Are both of them the cats ass in training? No they are not, but they do offer a service and to be honest its not a bad one.

If a instructor is judged by the quality of student they produce then every instructor in the industry would be found at fault. I can, you can, always find a percent of students that are not representative of the whole student body. I will say that every instructor that is honest with his / her student body could be found at fault for something. Take me for example, if you think that AD I had makes me a bad teacher ok fine, go see some one else. If you think Yeager and all the stuff on him in a public forum makes him a bad instructor then make that call.
That was my whole point in my comment to Paul.

So should I of stepped in as a employee of WSI? Nope

Should I of stepped in as a fellow trainer? Maybe, I honestly enjoy the back and forth so its hard not to post. LOL

Should I of posted what I did a member of CSC? I have the ability to place my foot in all kinds of places just like the rest of us.

So thats that.

 

Awesome man I appreciate the info and will look into it, always looking to learn and better my shooting it is defiantly a perishable skill good sir.

 

So umm... Good news. The McRib is back.

 

So I make a blanket statement, no names mentioned, and you can trash talk Larry Vickers?

 

I can't find where this occurred?

 

Paul,

That was about slings. The point in that topic is I am not a fan of Larry, I have many reasons to feel the way I do. I can point to many facts in why I say what I say with first hand experience on and off the range.

The junk you are talking about Chris is second hand at best, mostly off of YouTube and a DVD right? Have you ever taken a class from any level of national trainer you bad mouth? I have and do so to learn how the business works and learn new things. Some I was impressed with, others it was mostly hype. But I can make that call and say so because I experienced it first hand.

To be fully honest, the view I am taking is the same view Yeager takes of me and voiced it in that video. I am ok with it because its true, I did the AD, the rest no so much but its not worth asking him to fix it. Plus no one takes Yeager serious, he is the WWE of the firearms training world. BUT he fills classes, he has a notch and does his thing and supports his family so good for him.

John

 

Just FYI, these kinds of threads are destructive to the reputation of both Trace Armory Group and Frontline Defense. I hope the two of you can take a step back and read this thread from the perspective of prospective clients. But what do I know...I'm not a pistol/rifle instructor.

 

Sir,

Honestly I think its just the opposite for two main points.

1. It opens a window to who we as people are. If you do not like it then you know without investing time and money into what you see.

2. I will be 100% honest to myself. I have a home here and I will not suger coat who I am or what I think to gain more $$$ from you or anyone else. Nor will I blow smoke up someones skirt just to be PC.

If this post distracts you from my company so be it.

John

 

First of all let me say that I don't train anyone and I don't want to. Nor do I have any credentials to list. Plan fact is I don't take shit from anyone and when it comes to defending myself I take it serious. If it goes bang I'm very proficient at using it from in my face to far out and beyond.

I have never taking a class from Boyette are Paul, and I read great things and comments about both from the students that have on this forum. Let me clear the dirty air about who said this and that blah,blah ,blah. The Chris Costa class that John is referring to, and the person conducting the video both were at my place. That is where the class was held. It was Promoted by Warsport and Tracer Armory.

Like all of the "High Level" training that is conducted at my place a spot is always reserved for me. 90% percent of the training conducted there is not advertised nor is it open to the public. It's not your 82nd, 3rd group, Ranger, Army sniper, or any other division that folks come out of and bragg about. They don't exist and they don't care.
That being said I know "A lot of good trainer's and A lot of natural born killers".

To mention a few trainers that were mentioned above. Vickers. Most of all of 2012-2013 filming was done there.That's were the Daniel Defense filming along with all the damn explosions with southern thunder in the car and etc. happened. Larry is Larry and that's about all I'll say. Ken Hackathorne, awesome individual. Can do what most well known trainers can do with a pistol with his weak hand and he is twice their age. Kyle Lamb. Micheal Voigt, and many more as the list is endless. They all have conducted some form of training at my place privately in the last 5 years. So you get the picture.

On John's behalf. I am always at my place when the training is "Full Throttle" cause it ain't for the level 1 or 2 shooter. I'm either putting rounds down range or I'm watching. I happen to be watching the 6 days during the class that Costa conducted. Boyette never said a word to anyone about promoting his training so for all of the name saying it's Bull Shit and the one on the video is full of it. As far as the ND's. My dad always said there's two kinds of Harley riders. Those that have been down and those that are going down. Learn from it and be blessed you didn't hurt someone or yourself.
Now let me say this then everyone can piss on me cause I don't care or have a dog in this fight, this kind of shit is bad business. Everyone has there niche. I have mine in the matches that I run and in the matches I host for others. I don't care what other ranges/matches do, say are charge. 28 years in business and its not range or firearm related.

Competition is a "Good Thing". My dad taught me one thing is you don't talk about your competition you embrace them. Some of my customers come and go, but shortly return back for better service. We never ask them who they are using, but do ask why they are cancealing the service and It's a lower price every time. 6-8 months later it never fails they return for good service. We are at the highest side of pricing in our type of business. That's what makes us stive for impeccable service 24-7.
I agree there is a lot of weekend warriors calling them selfs trainers. Self boasting seems the normal for these types. Both of you have credentials and should not be concerned about other services nor will it effect your bottom line. There is plenty of folks willing to spend money and don't be the cheap guy. Y'all can't train everybody but the ones you do get paid for it rather it's more are less than the others and be happy with it cause you set the price and level of training you conduct. Last thing is you both are "tools" folks come to you just like they go to their toolbox to fix something that is broke.

 

Woody,

Thanks for the clearing up of the pissing contest, sometimes it takes a third cure for a dislodging of my head.

Paul I do owe you a apology and it's real for posting what I did about being a tool. That was a low blow.

Sorry about that.

 

Thanks for your comments Woody and apology accepted John. I apologize if I pissed you off in anyway.
But for my last remarks on this and I'm done with it, seems a lot are missing my point. I never said any names or referred to any specific trainer as a waste of money. A simple remark that one doesn't have to spend globs of money and go train across the country when they have the same opportunity as a local instructor. I have never taken a Trace Armory Carbine class, but if I wasn't teaching them and someone said hey I could spend this over here in la la ville or go to a Trace Armory Class, I'd say based off what I've seen on youtube, take the Trace Armory Class. Is that so terribly wrong? John you made similar remarks about Vickers, post 17 on that thread you commented to a statement about Larry is a well respected instructor, you said " So are alot of others. That does not mean its valid or real, or worth it." Yet everyone is thinking I'm a shit head for my remarks? If I made that same exact statement about Costa, I feel like I would be thrown off this forum or burned at the stake. That's what I was pissed off about. The replies to my statement. I guess having an opinion isn't what it use to be. So after this I'm not commenting anymore here on CSC. I'll stick to introductions and posting events and classes. I have too much going , even been asked to start my own range forum? We'll see, like I need one more frigging thing to do lol. Back now to training.

We aren't talking high end stuff like woody is talking about, not saying you can' t teach that John, I'm just envisioning group guys fast roping out of Chinooks and running through the country side at Woody's or high end contractors etc. Again not saying you can't or don't teach that, none of my buisness. Seems like a great DZ could be made out there. To be young again.
But the end result, get trained by someone, somewhere. Too many are running around as a liability, not an asset. I use to be one of those people, until a gun was in my face, and I'm still alive to talk about it. I shouldn't be. Any 1/2 coherent thug would have killed me sooner.
If one wants to spend a ton of money for the experience to say they trained with so and so, go for it. I did it twice and won't say with who. I can honestly say local companies here in NC that I have sat in the class (didn't give my real name or drive my company truck) did an outstanding job and I heard less damn war stories that eats up too much time.
In hind sight I should have never posted that under the AAR thread for Costa, I never thought people would think I was talking about him. The companies in my head haven't even been mentioned so far, so I'll leave it at that. Far as the ND situation. I feel the same way about competitions. Two types of shooters. Those who have Dq'd and those who haven't yet. It's just a matter of time. Drive a car long enough, you're going to wreck.
Have a great day gentleman.

 

Couple of things.

Paul, I dont think you need to pack up your football and go home. With the different experiences that members have in this board, everyone brings a different talent and perspective. We have to remember we are dealing with the internet, whether through a forum or a Youtube video, anyone can be publicly trashed at any moment without validation or telling the whole story.

Thanks for getting this cleared up guys, so now we can get back on track and we can sleep better knowing that the McRib is back.

 

Good to see that's been cleared up. I'm looking at both of your calendars and will be taking classes from both of you this year. I see myself as a forum member first and not a vendor. It's hard to see the line when we are firearms enthusiast. That being said I've put my foot in my mouth and owning up to it helps everyone. Some people will see it one way and others will see another.

 

I am a pro at it. Lol

Mostly it's a layered issue for me like this one.

All I got is my honestly even if I am wrong. Lol

John

 

Posted before I saw everyone had kissed and made up. Nevermind.