Lies! All lies!

 

Oh shush you! You just want me to buy your 45!

 

Sounds like something that's been said many times over

 

Many have used the FBI document in discussions about why the Military should stay with/run from 9mm in its service handgun. I have been called names from moron to idiot to liar to nonprintables for pointing out that the information is irrelevant since it compares high velocity 9mm JHP to low velocity 45acp JHP and the military is not allowed to use JHP but must use round nose FMJ where the ballistics are very different.

 

Yep, if you hamstrung to FMJ, a bigger hole is definitely better.

 

I know everyone has a favorite caliber but shot placement always trumps caliber. A hit with any caliber is more effective than a miss with any larger caliber.

 

Just go with the full power 10mm...The FBI had it right the first time.

 

Just saying if 10mm can stop a full size attacking brown bear it should stop a skinny white man high on PCP.

 

Lol!

 

My favorite: "LEO's miss between 70 - 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident."

So basically, expensive 9mm bullets now are better than they used to be, so we'll just go ahead and admit we're going to spray-and-pray.

If *SHOT PLACEMENT* is key (they said so) then why aren't we seeing a push toward guns which are easier to shoot accurately (i.e. single action like 9mm 1911's, Single action Sig's and CZ's)? Or optics? Instead of buying a new gun, put a 3# connector and an optic on that Glock 22 for giggles. See if THAT works. Or just practicing shooting more...

The whole rush to .40 and rush back to 9mm seems like we're just really arguing around the margins, complete with a lot of jello-covered marketing hype. The recoil and mag capacity just isn't that different in a duty size weapon. They *HAD* to have that .40, now we're just going to buy everyone new guns again in 9mm? If so, who got fired for wasting all the money on .40's?

 

Been saying this stuff for years. People still don't want to hear it ....

 

So rather than spend money on new guns, they should spend the money on more practice. Its so bloody simple, almost everywhere has a IDPA or USPSA match nearby. It doesn't teach tactics, but it will teach you to shoot your gun.

 

Show on Sportsman channel last night- looked at knockdown power. Set up a concrete block, couple bags of sakrete behind standing on their sides. They fired 9mm, 40, 45, 223 and even a 7.62 and none of them knocked down the concrete block.
They didn't try rskahle's 10mm.
I really didn;t think much of the 'test'...I mean, all the rounds entered the conc block, but it's nowhere nearly similar to hitting a man in the chest. I kinda agree, knockdown power is not to be expected, stopping is the issue. And shot placement is the best test for that.

 

This article states firmly that it's the PROJECTILE that one should examine in order to select a handgun round and then fails to delve into that before arriving at a conclusion. They just gloss over it by 1) stating that manufacturers have made advancements in JHP tech and 2) comparing a few calibers of LE duty ammo and saying 'they're all pretty much the same'.

Anyone know of a test series that compares various 9mm projectiles?

 

Right! The PROJECTILE brand, shape and weight may be nearly meaningless given adequate penetration! That would explain why the Buckeye guy found almost no difference in .380-.45.
Other than preventing over-penetration, I'm not sure that a handgun round in JHP has that much effect over FMJ. The Internet is littered with discussion, but those who test have apparently established that "temporary cavity" is meaningless in Handguns, yet we ALWAYS see this picture:

In other words, if temporary cavity is meaningless, then that picture is ALSO meaningless, except to prove that hollow points reduce penetration for all loads.

The actual stop is (apparently) all about penetration and shot placement. Which means that to STOP, the JHP may be a worse performing bullet than FMJ (less penetration). (Think about it - a 9mm JHP opens up to .45 or so for 'permanent wound channel', which makes it the same size as a .45 ACP, but hollow points in BOTH those only go about 14" thru jello.)

In other words, the hypothesis to prove/disprove is that JHP rounds are no more effective than FMJ for stopping bad guys. (Although they may prevent "over-penetration" through things behind the target.)