How did John Browning intend the 1911 to be carried? | Carolina Shooters Club

How did John Browning intend the 1911 to be carried?

Discussion in 'Carolinas 1911 Forum' started by Hunter, Oct 25, 2016.

  1. Hunter

    Hunter Staff Writer

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  2. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Here we go...
     
  3. trcubed

    trcubed well...bye Lifetime Member

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    Great write-up, Hunter.
     
  4. Catfish

    Catfish 'Murica! eh? Club Subscribed

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    Good read, thanks
     
  5. Tailhunter

    Tailhunter God Help Us Club Subscribed

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    Nice jab at Gaston.
     
  6. TSheaffer

    TSheaffer Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    I like it.
     
  7. majdurham

    majdurham Sensitivity/Anti-Harassment Trainer Club Subscribed

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    Nicely done Sir.
     
  8. gsimmons

    gsimmons Member

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    I thought they were supposed to be carried like this.....
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Chdamn

    Chdamn Staff VP of Shenanigans Lifetime Member Vendor Club Subscribed

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    Very well put together. I've always felt like most if not all weapons were designed in such a way as to give the shooter options as to how that wish to best implement that weapon. The choice and consequences of that choice are ultimately yours.
     
  10. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Just an observation.

    Ol' Gas copied everything except what he should have...including this.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Tailhunter

    Tailhunter God Help Us Club Subscribed

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    Not every one needs a mechanical safety.

    I'm thankful he got it right.
     
  12. mig1nc

    mig1nc Registered Member

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    Good job

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  13. Catfish

    Catfish 'Murica! eh? Club Subscribed

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    Which wheel gun is that with the trigger widget?
     
  14. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Iver Johnson Owl Head, 2nd Model.


    Colt maybe...but Browning's efforts were for the US Army...not the open market. He also sold the patents to Colt after the project was finished...so he had no stake in the commercial models.
     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Well...they don't call it "Glock Leg" for giggles.

    A friend of mine showed me the first Glock I'd ever seen over 30 years ago. The trigger jumped out at me, and I told him to be careful of that thing when he holstered the gun. Two weeks later to the day, he shot himself while holstering it. Pretty well wrecked his knee, and after several surgeries, he has a slight limp...and some recurring pain...to this day.

    There seems to be a general belief that I hate Glocks. I don't. Well...except for the only external safety being mounted on the loud button. Never made any bones how I felt about that.

    But, that aside...I don't hate Glocks. I just don't think that they're anything special. I also believe in my heart that the designers know that they screwed up by not using a manual safety, but the company is so deeply invested, that adding one at this stage would be a de facto admission that they screwed up...which would leave them open to all sorts of lawsuits.

    People aren't perfect. A manual safety helps to guard against the human brainfart. Not a guarantee, of course...just a better chance of avoiding disaster.
     
  16. bamashooter

    bamashooter Registered Member

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    Thanks. Another great Tuner insightful story.
     
  17. RedneckFur

    RedneckFur Well-Known Member

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    Me, personally, I want some sort of manual safety on any auto pistol that I own.

    And while I do like and admire the 1911, I've never had one really fit my hand well. The thumb safety tends to cut the big knuckle on my thumb up after about 50 rounds. The CZ75, on the other hand, fits my hand like it was made for it.
     
  18. JimB

    JimB Hall of Shame

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    No time to read the link right now, so need a spoiler...was it "on a horse" or "the way the army wanted it"?
     
  19. Catfish

    Catfish 'Murica! eh? Club Subscribed

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    The second one, with a little bit of "he really didn't care"
     
  20. Tailhunter

    Tailhunter God Help Us Club Subscribed

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    I for one am glad they saw fit to let the 1911 guys have the stupid safety.

     
  21. ArbowAxle

    ArbowAxle Registered Member

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    Tuner, you are informative and entertaining, hard to find that in a writer. Cocked and Locked seems to be the most practical way to carry a 1911.

    I don't know how many handguns I've tried out over the years........ But I tend to go back to a revolver, CZ75, or a 1911.
     
  22. WNC1911

    WNC1911 NRA Life Member Club Subscribed

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    Great article. Thanks for posting.
     
  23. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Tex would have shot himself there if he'd had a double-action revolver. That holster design was about as idiotic as any I've ever seen.

    And that "stupid safety" was put there so that the cocked gun could be safely reholstered in a hurry understress...to keep the soldier from shooting himself or his horse. Apparently, it worked because there's nothing in the lexicon about 1911 leg.


    Neither. Browning didn't have any intent as to how the pistol was to be carried, and it's unlikely that he cared. He designed it to US Army Ordnance specifications.

    *snip*

    Likely a matter of: "Here's yer pistol, fellas. You can do this, this, this, or this. Y'all figure it out. I'm goin' to Belgium."

    If he had any intent at all, it was to use the half cock as a manual safety.

    Maybe you should read the article. It's all there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  24. JimB

    JimB Hall of Shame

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    It's in the reading pile. My question was meant to be somewhat humorous, of course he was building to their specifications.
     
  25. B00GER

    B00GER Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    It's easy to demonize "Glock Leg" but considering concealed carry has risen to over 14.5 million people and considering the top selling CCW firearms being glocks, LCPs, and Shields (with and without safeties) the fact is more people are carrying guns on a daily basis than ever before so negligence is going to go hand in hand.

    People have been accidentally shooting themselves since the dawn of gunpowder. Does the trigger safety contribute to these? Perhaps, but without considering all other factors it's a rarity amongst the rare even as it stands.


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  26. Hunter

    Hunter Staff Writer

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    Thank you but I cannot take credit, that is all John Travis.
     
  27. trcubed

    trcubed well...bye Lifetime Member

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    Oops...my apologies.

    Great write-up, @1911Tuner!
     
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  28. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    Sure they have. Whenever people get careless with guns, bad things can happen.


    People aren't perfect, especially when they're under extreme duress...like immediately after shooting someone in legitimate self defense. They forget to get their finger off the trigger before jamming a pistol back into the holster...or something like a shirt or coattail gets tangled up with the gun while the whole Flight/Fight is still pumping, and the result is predictable.

    That's a problem, and it's the single reason that the US Army wanted a manual safety on its new single action pistol with its short, light trigger action.

    A manual safety that has been used hundreds or thousands of times at the range becomes ingrained in the muscle memory...and the shooter's thumb will engage it without thought, intent, or even a clear memory of the action.

    "Glock Leg" has become so commonplace that it's become part of the lexicon. Whenever we hear of somebody shooting themselves in the leg coming or going from the holster, we almost universally think "Glock" before we even have the whole story.

    It's even listed in the Urban Dictionary.

    To wit:

    Glock leg
    A condition where a person shoots himself (or herself) in the leg while holstering their Glock pistol.

    This can happen with any weapon wielded by a careless user, but it is common among Glock pistols due to the lack of a manual safety, relatively light trigger pull, and lack of a proper hammer to push on while holstering.

    It's for these reasons that I advise Glock carriers to train themselves to place their fingers firmly behind the trigger for reholstering. It's not a guarantee, but it does provide a little extra wiggle room should it hit a snag.
     
  29. B00GER

    B00GER Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    Never said it didn't happen. Just that you ignore the other mitigating factors behind the phenomenon such as numbers of Glock style pistols carried vs 1911 style, as well as the 14.5 million people carrying now vs years past.




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  30. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Staff

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    On Tex Grebner's 1911 leg...

    The holster that he was using was the ultimate cause of the discharge. With the release button placed directly in line with the trigger guard, it's a disaster in the making. As he discovered...failing to immediately release the gun, along with his self-training on the timing of the safety disengagement...and the tendency of the human body to continue what it was trained to do...when the pistol cleared the holster, his finger was pressing firmly inward, fighting to effect the release...and when it did, his finger entered the trigger guard and hit the trigger.

    Was it a case of the nut holding the gun? Yes. Did the holster design contribute? Oh, yes. Very much so. I knew that it was gonna be a problem when I saw the first one of its kind, and told the proud owner not to practice fast draw with it.
     

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