"A society full of sales people bring a bevy of choices to the consuming public, so that they have the freedom to choose between the various products. When that happens, folks buy Fords instead of buggy whips (to use your illustration.....and Henry Ford would have absolutely scoffed at your idea that a sales force is unnecessary, he hired em by the boatload."

NO NO NO....you don't get it!!

This is more accurate.....A SOCIETY FULL OF HARD WORKING GREAT PRODUCING PEOPLE MAKING UP A HUGE WORK FORCE THAT IS VERY DIVERSIFIED AND PRODUCTIVE, BRINGS A BEVY OF CHOICES AND MANUFACTURED GOODS TO THE MARKET......that's who brings the "bevy of choices" not the sales people....the sales people only exist,CAN ONLY EXIST, through the efforts of hard working,productive, ingenious, inventive people.

I have been in manufacturing all my adult life and I have never seen any product built by talking.....yes, it is the "dirt under the fingernails" guys that keep ANY economy strong and prosperous....it is the ACTUAL production of products that drive that machine.
Look were this country is today....and we are here for the most part because of our tremendous drop in MANUFACTURING.


"It is true that very good products have a sales engine of their own. For example, Hershey's chocolate for YEARS AND YEARS did absolutely no advertising. Zip. They simply produced a superior product, and their sales force (yawn, yes, they DID hire sales people rather than expect the bars to magically jump on the shelves) were largely order takers."

Yes, very good products DO sell themselves....or at least, products that are in demand sell themselves.
NO SALESMEN...makes people wait in line overnight for an I-phone...
Makes me stand in line for 45 minutes for my favorite Philly cheese steak when I am in Philly.
Makes people buy Nike, Honda, etc. etc.
It's the product itself.

I NEVER listen to or discuss the purchase of a product with a salesperson, WHY?? because I know what I am going to buy BEFORE I leave my house.
The last purchases I made, and all purchases I make, are based on research and information taken from a number of sources.
So, when I purchased my new digital camera, pressure cooker, rifle action,scope, car, etc. it was based on research and recommedations....not on a salespersons pitch....because ANY info I got from them would be bias toward what THEY ARE SELLING...well, usually.


"To be sympathetic to you, I think that is what you are kind of getting at, although you are using a bazooka to shoot a fly. American Capitalism USED to be the idea that if you build/produce a superior product/service, the world will come to you upon discovery. Your sales force existed to introduce the product, which then sold itself. That has been turned on it head and we are now a nation which produces very little but is great at inventing conceptual schemes, and is convinced that the key to success is a successful marketing ploy to convince folks they "need" something which they really don't. I am in agreement that superior products "sell themselves" in that they make the sales person's job easier. Inferior/useless products produce unethical and deceptive sales people. These principles are at least as old as the book of Proverbs in the Bible."

No argument here...I agree totally....Best thing you have said in our discussion... I MAY be using a bazooka to shoot a fly.....(can I get a bazooka???) but maybe I am just a little more blunt than most.....I am more of a "kitchen table" kind of guy vs. the refined diplomat....just in case you couldn't tell.:wink:

I am familiar with Bill Gates....I just used him as an example....point is, I have NOTHING against wealthy people...that is what I was trying to convey ....for the most part, I like wealthy people....poor people do not give out jobs or hire people....I admire people who work hard and produce needed products and then, hire people who can then attain a higher standard of living.

"I think that the root of your poorly thought out objection is the true protest that 1) the USA produces much less "stuff" nowadays 2) the consequent shift to a "service" economy produced a generation who think that wealth can be produced and sustained by folks who move paper around and direct how it moves. I am in sympathy with your disdain for that and echo your longing that we go back to an economy that focuses on what we make rather than how we move it from producer to consumer."

No argument here again except....it is not a poorly thought out objection, rather a cold hard look at the facts and said in a way that offends some....sorry, what I said is true.

"Jim Rogers, one of the most successful traders in the world, is arguing that the best and brightest should move off Wall Street and GO INTO FARMING! He believes, and I agree, that we are headed into a worldwide food shortage that will force the shift that you are arguing (albeit in a poor way) for....., at least I THINK that is what you are arguing for at the core. If so, I agree with the root argument, but some of the implications you draw are just dumb.

I agree with both you and Jim on this one....it IS coming.
Best and brightest from Wall Street though?? Why? I don't ,and many others won't, need some white shirt to direct me/us...I'll/we'll need someone standing NEXT to us and working with us.
Not sure if the skill set they possess would be of any value in the field....most of them would probably be afraid to break a nail or get their shirt dirty. See, that is my argument, we are rapidly returning to a society where we need people WHO DO THE WORK.....in the direction we are heading, WE DON"T need theory or those that do not pull their weight.....WE DON'T need people who "take a cut" but produce nothing .....we are getting to the point were we CAN'T SUPPORT a "merchant class".
See, although you don't care for the way I say things and insist that "some of the implications I draw are just dumb", They REALLY aren't....they are just said in a "Bazooka and fly manner".....doesn't make them any less true.....

AND when I say "peace" , I say it because WE CAN DISAGREE and not HATE each other...at least I can.
It doesn't matter anyway......the way we are heading, we will soon find out if I am full of beans or not.....will see if the manner I say something is more important than what is said.
So,
PEACE

 

NO NO NO....you don't get it!!

This is more accurate.....A SOCIETY FULL OF HARD WORKING GREAT PRODUCING PEOPLE MAKING UP A HUGE WORK FORCE THAT IS VERY DIVERSIFIED AND PRODUCTIVE, BRINGS A BEVY OF CHOICES AND MANUFACTURED GOODS TO THE MARKET......that's who brings the "bevy of choices" not the sales people....the sales people only exist,CAN ONLY EXIST, through the efforts of hard working, productive, ingenious, inventive people.

Actually, maybe we do get it, and see it differently than you do. (And your message sounds as though you just got through reading something by Ayn Rand.)

If you build a better mousetrap, the world will NOT always beat a path to your door.

The people of the world may find their way there, but a cheaper less efficient mousetrap will likely corner the market -- because a smart salesman found a way to sell HIS product, and make more money, than he would have made had he bought from you and sold yours. Sometimes the innovation isn't what sells the product, but how it's sold. A garage full of the greatest devices isn't worth a crap if the person making them doesn't know how to sell them, too. And they often don't.

The best products don't always sell. Some of the best craftsmen can't make a living, becuase "good enough" is far better and more attractive to most people than "the very best" (or "better than good enough.") This is true of almost everything. And the people who buy things don't always make rational decisions -- sometimes they're keeping up with the Joneses, or just buying impulsively.

Remember Hula Hoops, Pet Rocks, and those little whistles that go on the front of cars to scare away deer? They probably made somebody an honest fortune (i.e., he or she didn't use a gun to make their money.) A lot of crappy products sell better than superior products, and why are they still in business? Because somebody knows how to sell those product and the salespeople are GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO!!

And, in a lot of cases, for a Salesperson, being good at what they do is telling the people who make the products how they can change them to make the sell better. Some of the best salespeople I've worked with knew just about as much about the products and the people who made them, but understood better what people wanted. Take a good product and have it sold by a good salesperson, and you'll sell more than just a good product, alone.

If it was as simple as you say, the world would have taken a different course, long ago.

 

"Actually, maybe we do get it, and see it differently than you do. (And your message sounds as though you just got through reading something by Ayn Rand.)"

Good points Walt.
Actually, I don't read anything so "high brow"......I'm more of a sci-fi guy and go for the mindless entertainment....I like to read Stephen King.

I rarely let anything or anybody influence my way of thinking on most matters, I prefer( dumb as I am) to draw on my life experiences and the experiences of those I know and trust.
Contrary to how it may appear, I am of above average intelligence.....at least that's what the tests have always said, point is, I trust myself and my observations so I don't rely on any author to tell me what to think.

Anywho, I think we are starting to see some of what I have said actually starting to take place in our society.
How do you think we got to this point....I suggest it is because of the downfall of our manufacturing base.

When Tanstaafl says ...."American Capitalism USED to be the idea that if you build/produce a superior product/service, the world will come to you upon discovery. Your sales force existed to introduce the product, which then sold itself. That has been turned on it head and we are now a nation which produces very little but is great at inventing conceptual schemes, and is convinced that the key to success is a successful marketing ploy to convince folks they "need" something which they really don't."

AND

""I think that the root of your poorly thought out objection is the true protest that 1) the USA produces much less "stuff" nowadays 2) the consequent shift to a "service" economy produced a generation who think that wealth can be produced and sustained by folks who move paper around and direct how it moves."

I could not agree more....true words and SAD...but, we MAY (hopefully) come back to the way we used to be...in fact, I think we will have to.

I don't have a problem with a large part of our economy being a "service" economy....nothing wrong with that, I just have a problem with some of the "services". Some services are more valuable and more necessary than others...in my opinion.

Look, I'll show my ignorance again.....we were, or I was, talking about real estate agents and car salesman...many of whom make a good living (or did, but that just reinforces my point).
ANYONE here can take out a FOR SALE add in a publication and sell their home or car....an agent or salesperson is not needed....so, how skilled do you have to be to do it??
As far as buying a new car, I'll say again, the automakers should cut out the middle man and sell cars direct to the public and have service centers....biggest reason is you could cut probably 10% off the price of a new auto and not loose ANYTHING by doing so.....salesman add NO VALUE to a product.
Now, lawyers and surveyors and bankers etc ARE necessary for the sale of a home....they do what is necessary for a legal, binding, safe sale.
You may or may not get my point......I ain't very r-tic-u-lent sometimes.

Walt, when you say....."
The best products don't always sell. Some of the best craftsmen can't make a living, because "good enough" is far better and more attractive to most people than "the very best" (or "better than good enough.") This is true of almost everything."

I look at it a different way....another way to say what your saying may be something like:
Although craftsmen A builds a better product, he can't produce it as quickly or as cost effectively as craftsman B, so, although craftsmans B product may be slightly inferior to craftsmans A's, he is able to stay in business.
Salespeople have nothing to do with it....
Honda vs. Chevy or Dodge or.....both in business, both sale cars...one sells more than another and it has nothing to do with salespeople....it has to do with the product being sold....and the price....how many people WANT a Honda but can only afford a different car??
So, if you switch sales staffs, would you expect the sales figures to be reversed?? I wouldn't.

"And, in a lot of cases, for a Salesperson, being good at what they do is telling the people who make the products how they can change them to make the sell better."

Not needed....consumers tell a company what they want and how to make a product better....they tell a company with their wallets and when they fill out product surveys .....consumer reports and other like publications tell a manufacturer the weak links in their products.
The men and women who work in service departments and actually see and repair products know the weak spots and tell about recurring problems with a product......these are the people who get their hands dirty and KNOW the product as it is in service.
I am good friends with a service manager at a local car dealership that sold several different brands of cars.....if I want to know what cars he sees a lot of....that is what cars are a problem, I ask him and he tells me what cars he never sees and what cars he sees often....and the trouble spots.
If I ask a salesperson the same question....I'LL GET A BLANK STARE!!

Some services are needed and necessary and valuable to me.....others do nothing more than add costs and NO VALUE to a product.

 

Capitalism has been around for a long time, and good craftsmen were making products long before Capitalism caught on. Yet there have always been great products and crappy ones, and both sell and both are in demand. Sometimes the best products don't sell nearly as well as you know they should. If it's not salesmanship that makes those less-good product sell better than the great ones, what is left? Magic? Unfair market restraints? Monopolies?

I've met a bunch of crappy salesmen. But I've met crappy ministers, too. I've also worked with really good salespeople and met a few really exceptional ministers. I can't make the grand sweeping statements you make...

While I generally agree with and respect most of what Tanstaafl says on most topics, I'm not sure that American business or American Capitalism was ever quite as pure or as unfettered as he claims. He may be right, but maybe not. (That's clearly open to debate.) I think the history of business in America is a bit like the American History they taught us in high school. They'd like us to think it was that way, but when you start digging you sometimes find that it was quite different than we thought.

Over the years I've worked in sales support jobs, and spent a few years in Marketing. I even had a sideline business writing advertising copy some years back -- and did direct mail. One of the most successful direct mail projects I ever worked on, about 20 years ago, was for Rubbermaid. They were introducing a new product called "Door Huggers", which were devices that slipped down into the window channel, designed to hold drinks and cups.

Rubbermaid (through an ad agency) asked me to do a new product introduction mailing.

I suggested that instead of offering a new product package, they actually offer to sell a starter kit that included samples of everything in the Door Hugger line and start selling immediately. I wrote the advertising copy, gave them concept sketches, etc. The ad agency loved the idea, and so did Rubbermaid. They tried it and it was a great success. Too successful, I later found -- they couldn't keep up with the demand, it caused them problems. In some ways, I did what a salesman is supposed to do -- offered a different way of presenting the product, and the buying public loved it... Most of my life, though, I worked with the folks who delivered products and services, developing computer systems and improving work flows and methods.

If you think salesmanship is really bad, think about the political talk shows that so many folks are enthused about. What you see and hear there is simple SALESMANSHIP. Pure and simple: different ways of saying things that make them get your attention and hold it.

And, believe me: these "salesmen" are very sensitive to what will make their audience happy and what will piss them off. It's sometimes a balancing act, to say the things that inspires their listeners without upsetting their advertisers. Sometimes they simply misjudge, one way or another.

Some years back Rush Limbaugh got kicked off Monday Night Football for some comments about black quarterbacks. Beck is feeling some heat now for calling Obama Racist. Olbermann and Matthews got slammed for negative comments when they were covering the Republican National Convention during the last election -- (Bobby Jindal's speech immediately comes to mind) -- and it didn't take advertisers raising a stink to get them jerked off the air for that role. They still had their regular shows, but the were no longer front and center during the Conventions. That cost both Olbermann and Matthews money and credibility.

Glenn Beck is a salesman. Rush Limbaugh is a Salesman. Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews are salesmen. They're "selling" ideas. Sometimes they're selling bullsh*t, too. Not much that they offer is really all that important to you or me in our daily lives, and we would do just fine without them, but we think they are important and we watch or listen, and we're exposed to the advertising that keeps them on the air. I don't really think that any of them are "selling" what they're selling for our sake. They do it because they get paid a lot, and they've got an audience that they cater to. If they were using their hands, we'd call what they're doing the intellectual equivalent of a "hand job" -- but since they're just talking we call it a political talk show. Conservative or Liberal, Republican or Democrat, right or left... it's mostly full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. But it sells, big time.

 

Good points again Walt and I understand your position....although on a few points I disagree somewhat.

"
Glenn Beck is a salesman. Rush Limbaugh is a Salesman.Keith Obermann and Chris Matthews are salesmen. They're "selling" ideas. Sometimes they're selling bullsh*t, too. Not much that they offer is really that important to you or me in our daily lives, and we could do well without them, but we think they are important and we watch or listen, and we're exposed to the advertising."

I think that being an informed person is important.....I don't think the above people are selling "ideas" .....in some cases opinions but not ideas.

I guess the value of any "talking head" or author for that matter depends on what side of the fence your on.
I look at GB as someone who truly believes in what he has to say, and for the most part offers facts and asks questions.....and at times, yes offers his opinion.
I think this is valuable, many of the things that Glenn talks about, I don't find on other shows or forms of media.

I think that what they have to say, DOES matter in our daily lives....now more than ever.
See, I think that's part of the reason we are where we are because, in our struggle to acquire things, we have all put very important things on the back burner.
It's hard to be well informed when you work long hours and come home tired...to tired to read or watch TV and fall asleep in the recliner.
Many of us are to busy and have enough on our plates to care about the big picture.
Many of the topics discussed on GB and other programs WILL have a great effect on our daily lives....health care, cap and trade, some of the new laws concerning the flu epidemic etc.......this stuff WILL affect you and me someday and if we are not made aware of this stuff, we'll be closing the door after the horse got out.
For me, I think people like Glenn provide a valuable service....others may not and thats OK.....I just hope they use another form of media to stay informed and make decisions....because there is much out there that we NEED to know about and act on.

 

I agree that the stuff they talk about will affect us, but I don't watch ANY of the talk shows. (Except, sometimes, Morning Joe, on MSNBC. Joe Scarborough is a conservative, but very balanced, and he has folks on his show who have other viewpoints--and a lot of spirited discussions.)

There are too many other sources of information that don't try to give me a pre-digested mash to swallow. It takes longer, it's true, but if this stuff is really THAT important, that extra time shouldn't matter. I never liked Reader's Digest when reading literature or news articles, and I don't want the equivalent when I'm dealing with important issues in the political world.

Try POLITICO.COM, sometime, if you've not already done so. You'll find it really interesting. Much less biased -- but with links to opinions and viewpoints, too, if you want that. And these ideas are not presented in the simple black/white style of most of the talk shows. Most of the talk shows just want people to respond with the Political equivalent of an "AMEN", and I think they ought to expect more.

 

Having spent 17 of the last 21 years working as a design engineer in the plastics biz........I`ve learned 1 thing about sales guys/gals.............without me, they don`t have a job. Without them, I don`t have a job. It`s a 2 way street in capital equipment.

`nuf said

 

Why did you nitwits bring the talk show demagogues into this thread? What are you guys? Idiots? This thread is supposed to be about civility on the forum, but no, you morons stray off point immediately! Why can't everyone be as smart, humble, and polite as me!?!

:laugh:

 

Guffaw!!

 

Police academy!... now that's lazy

LOL! Not at this police academy. I am going through BLET at CPCC in Huntersville. 12 hour days, tons of homework, and enough PT to get me to lose 13 pounds in the first 3 weeks. We have a less than 50% graduation rate, and I am not trying to toot my horn (much) but we are rated the best academy in the state, and not because it is easy. Think "Full Metal Jacket-dialed-back-a-bit" not "police academy" the movie.

 

My son went through BLET at Davidson Community College, and I suspect it was a bit easier than CPCC's program.

But, a few years later (after having been a beat cop in Kernersville, and getting SWAT training), he went through NC Highway Patrol basic training, and THAT may actually be worse than Marine Corps basic. Many of the Instructors were Marines, and seem to want to want to make it harder... A couple are almost freaks about martial arts -- including a couple of women who apparently can kick butt.

I'd say the hand-to-hand combat training at the HP school is brutal. They seem to focus a lot more attention on that than guns or other types of weapons. (They figure their guys are on their own, with no backup likely, so they get trained in some techniques that most police officers aren't trained in or allowed to use...)