What I was told when I was down there a guy brought a M2 carbine in, ask about it and said he just got is from another guy that was selling it. Wanted to know more about it.

They ( FG&G ) then took it from him and told him that he could not have that and called the cops.
Cops came in and got it from the shop.

Sounded like the guy had no clue about anything, just was asking about the new gun he got.

And people always ask why you want a paper trail.....

I have seen semi M2 carbines at the gun shows in the past.

No way of telling if it would fire FA or not but if stamped M2 then its a FA.

 

I walked in the door minutes after the whole thing went down.

From what I understand...

Guy came in to sell the gun to Clay. Clay noticed it was f/a, and called to police. Police came, got the info from clay, and arrested the guy.

I walked in the store 2 or 3 minutes after the cops arrested the guy and hauled him off. A couple cops were still there doing paperwork and talking to Clay.

Clay seems to think the guy was a ATF guy, but Clay and his wife both said the guy acted like he had no idea it was f/a...and felt sorry for the guy IF he was not in fact ATF.

 

Thanks for the info

 

think of all the lives that were saved today

 

Think about it alittle deeper. Was the price reflecting a F/A like he knew it was worth more? Did the guy ever allude that it was F/A? IF he was ATF and say it was a gun Clay was not familiar with an bought it, and they attempt to prosecute him, isn't that entrapment?

 

Think about it alittle deeper. Was the price reflecting a F/A like he knew it was worth more? Did the guy ever allude that it was F/A? IF he was ATF and say it was a gun Clay was not familiar with an bought it, and they attempt to prosecute him, isn't that entrapment?

No, that isnt entrapment.

I dont feel like grabbing a text book to find a good definition, but here's a quick and dirty one from Wikipedia:

Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:
The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.

 

Think about it alittle deeper. Was the price reflecting a F/A like he knew it was worth more? Did the guy ever allude that it was F/A? IF he was ATF and say it was a gun Clay was not familiar with an bought it, and they attempt to prosecute him, isn't that entrapment?

No such thing as entrapment with the ATF (or at least that's the way it seems to be) I hope it was an ATF guy, and GOOD for Clay for doing the right thing. They are coming after us now.... and will be until this administration is gone. If you don't think so, just remember who wrote the original AW ban of the clinton era.... The current VP......

 

Well consider this... If he thought something was up, why would he hang around for the Police and not just run out?

And by your deifnitions. I need to be an expert on every firearm I purchase BEFORE I purchase it to make sure it's not F/A.

 

Kinda sucks to be that guy if he wasn't ATF. I mean they called the cops and had him arrested for buying what he didn't know was a Title II firearm.

 

Kinda sucks to be that guy if he wasn't ATF. I mean they called the cops and had him arrested for buying what he didn't know was a Title II firearm.

Well, if he really didnt know, and he can prove who he bought it from, he will probably be alright.

 

Well consider this... If he thought something was up, why would he hang around for the Police and not just run out?

And by your deifnitions. I need to be an expert on every firearm I purchase BEFORE I purchase it to make sure it's not F/A.

You should know how to perform a basic functions check on pretty much any firearm you own or are thinking about owning. If its a semi-auto, its pretty simple...verify the firearm is unloaded, cycle the action, put the selector switch on 'safe' and squeeze the trigger. Nothing should happen. Then, place the switch on 'fire' and squeeze the trigger and hold it. You should hear/feel/see the hammer/striker fall. With the trigger back, cycle the action again. Release the trigger. You should hear or feel a distinct click; that is the disconnector releasing the hammer to the sear. If you hear or feel a click that is strangely like the hammer falling, you've got a problem. If you release the trigger and nothing happens, you've got a problem. A gun that doesn't reset to the sear properly is going to double or go full auto on you at some point. You might be lucky and the hammer follows the the slide/bolt forward, but eventually, it will bite you in the arse...

As always, buyer beware. LEOs typically aren't too fond of the 'I didn't know it would do that' or the 'I didn't know how it worked' defenses. Especially alphabet agency LEOs.

Byrdman

 

You should know how to perform a basic functions check on pretty much any firearm you own or are thinking about owning. If its a semi-auto, its pretty simple...verify the firearm is unloaded, cycle the action, put the selector switch on 'safe' and squeeze the trigger. Nothing should happen. Then, place the switch on 'fire' and squeeze the trigger and hold it. You should hear/feel/see the hammer/striker fall. With the trigger back, cycle the action again. Release the trigger. You should hear or feel a distinct click; that is the disconnector releasing the hammer to the sear. If you hear or feel a click that is strangely like the hammer falling, you've got a problem. If you release the trigger and nothing happens, you've got a problem. A gun that doesn't reset to the sear properly is going to double or go full auto on you at some point. You might be lucky and the hammer follows the the slide/bolt forward, but eventually, it will bite you in the arse...

As always, buyer beware. LEOs typically aren't too fond of the 'I didn't know it would do that' or the 'I didn't know how it worked' defenses. Especially alphabet agency LEOs.

Byrdman

Not that easy,
If the gun has the extra hole like for a AR/m16 or AK it will also be class MG.
If the gun has parts that are known to the ones used in a MG then it is class MG.

So take your ar, add a M16 trigger, slector, disconect, and so on. The gun will work as a semi. Will not fire FA. But ATF will bust you the same as if you made it a FA with those parts.

 

Not that easy,
If the gun has the extra hole like for a AR/m16 or AK it will also be class MG.
If the gun has parts that are known to the ones used in a MG then it is class MG.

So take your ar, add a M16 trigger, slector, disconect, and so on. The gun will work as a semi. Will not fire FA. But ATF will bust you the same as if you made it a FA with those parts.

Not sure this is true. I've owned several AR's and AR type weapons (Bushmaster Assault rifle is one) that had M16 internals. Hammer, BCG etc. It was sold factory in that config.
If what your saying is true then there are 1000's of rifles out there right now that are classified as MG. I know ATF changes opinions like the wind, so you may be correct.
Sucks for all the guys who (owned) legal rifles then became felons. The pen truly is mighter than the sword...

 

Personally I'm hoping it is one of Bloomberg's goons sent down here for another "sting."

Sucks if the guy really was ignorant of what he had though.

 

Not that easy,
If the gun has the extra hole like for a AR/m16 or AK it will also be class MG.
If the gun has parts that are known to the ones used in a MG then it is class MG.

So take your ar, add a M16 trigger, slector, disconect, and so on. The gun will work as a semi. Will not fire FA. But ATF will bust you the same as if you made it a FA with those parts.

OK, well, then I guess EVERY transaction EVERY time should be evaluated by a trained gunsmith to verify that every part in every gun is OK by the BATFE. Right? :blink:

I'm not sure what 'extra hole' you're talking about, but if the gun goes 'thunk' when you release the trigger instead of dropping the hammer as the slide/bolt goes back into battery, 99.99999996% of the time, you're fine. I'm not talking AR-specific here, but since you insist on bringing them up, the BATFE has ruled that FA BCGs (M16/M4) aren't NFA items. A few parts in a gun, unless they specifically allow it to burst or go FA, don't result in a trip to 'Club Fed'. FA parts in an M3 Carbine that allow it to function as designed ARE regulated NFA parts, therefore, its an NFA firearm.

By your logic, Spike's lowers that have the selector switch marking for Auto/Triple Burst on them are NFA items, right?

Byrdman

 

Personally I'm hoping it is one of Bloomberg's goons sent down here for another "sting."

The only thing that would be better than that, would be if it WAS Bloomberg himself..

 

I hate it for the guy who got busted, as he probably bought the gun used and had no idea it was an NFA item. I don't know the facts, but more than likely I'll bet it was a semi conversion of an M2, quite a few were sold back in the day and then the ATF made the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" ruling. Simply having the gun with "M2" stamped on the receiver makes it a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF, regardless of whether it is semi-auto only in it's firing.

 

OK, well, then I guess EVERY transaction EVERY time should be evaluated by a trained gunsmith to verify that every part in every gun is OK by the BATFE. Right? :blink:

I'm not sure what 'extra hole' you're talking about, but if the gun goes 'thunk' when you release the trigger instead of dropping the hammer as the slide/bolt goes back into battery, 99.99999996% of the time, you're fine. I'm not talking AR-specific here, but since you insist on bringing them up, the BATFE has ruled that FA BCGs (M16/M4) aren't NFA items. A few parts in a gun, unless they specifically allow it to burst or go FA, don't result in a trip to 'Club Fed'. FA parts in an M3 Carbine that allow it to function as designed ARE regulated NFA parts, therefore, its an NFA firearm.

By your logic, Spike's lowers that have the selector switch marking for Auto/Triple Burst on them are NFA items, right?

Byrdman

And that's where it all becomes a gray area. Yes it's perfectly legal to possess F/A M-16 parts and an AR, and it's legal to possess F/A AK parts and a semi AK, as the receivers are what have to be modified in order to convert to F/A. Then there are other guns in which auto sears and the F/A FCG parts are contraband/registered, and in this case, as my post above, just the markings on the receiver make it contraband.

The ATF has way too much leeway in making rulings and pulling them out of their arses. What could be harmless AR/AK F/A parts today could be constructive intent tomorrow. And to top that off, How many LE do you think know the specifics of the law? I have heard of multiple run-ins with local law enforcement because they didn't realize that an additional safety lever notch on an AK receiver was OK, or that the fact that the selector on a semi FAL build can in fact rotate to the auto position and not be considered a machine gun.

 

OK, well, then I guess EVERY transaction EVERY time should be evaluated by a trained gunsmith to verify that every part in every gun is OK by the BATFE. Right? :blink:

I'm not sure what 'extra hole' you're talking about, but if the gun goes 'thunk' when you release the trigger instead of dropping the hammer as the slide/bolt goes back into battery, 99.99999996% of the time, you're fine. I'm not talking AR-specific here, but since you insist on bringing them up, the BATFE has ruled that FA BCGs (M16/M4) aren't NFA items. A few parts in a gun, unless they specifically allow it to burst or go FA, don't result in a trip to 'Club Fed'. FA parts in an M3 Carbine that allow it to function as designed ARE regulated NFA parts, therefore, its an NFA firearm.

By your logic, Spike's lowers that have the selector switch marking for Auto/Triple Burst on them are NFA items, right?

Byrdman

You can do the reading, if you are not sure when talking about the stuff.....

But in short.
THe AR and AK there in a Hole for the Auto sear, If that is in the rec, then its a no no.
Never said anything about the BCG, that is ok.
Talking about the Hammer, Sear, Trigger, Selector. Reason, there is a thing called a drop in auto sear and it is as it is named drop in. So they don't let you have all the other goodies. The markings on it do not matter as in what you say about the Spikes. It can say what you want it to, May cause you problems with the wrong LEO, but would get cleared up.

Also there are several guns by name are MG no matter how they shoot or what they do.
If it is military and has M2 carbine then it is a MG. And also M3 but very few of them around.

Don't know how long you have been doing this but you may want to take your guns to a gunsmith if you do not know what the extra holes are in a AK or AR.

 

And that's where it all becomes a gray area. Yes it's perfectly legal to possess F/A M-16 parts and an AR, and it's legal to possess F/A AK parts and a semi AK, as the receivers are what have to be modified in order to convert to F/A. Then there are other guns in which auto sears and the F/A FCG parts are contraband/registered, and in this case, as my post above, just the markings on the receiver make it contraband.

The ATF has way too much leeway in making rulings and pulling them out of their arses. What could be harmless AR/AK F/A parts today could be constructive intent tomorrow.

But what he is talking about is having the hammers, selectors and disconect in the gun and it being OK.

 

Not sure this is true. I've owned several AR's and AR type weapons (Bushmaster Assault rifle is one) that had M16 internals. Hammer, BCG etc. It was sold factory in that config.
If what your saying is true then there are 1000's of rifles out there right now that are classified as MG. I know ATF changes opinions like the wind, so you may be correct.
Sucks for all the guys who (owned) legal rifles then became felons. The pen truly is mighter than the sword...

You are corect on the BCG that is OK to use, the Hammer is not.
I have talked to them on that before and they say they never used a M16 hammer in a gun sold to the public.

Now there were a few real early Armilite that had more parts and Pack West Arms.

There is a lot of good reading and the standard is that nothing other then the BCG can be used in current guns and the have a time frame with list of makers that may have used some of the M16 parts.

Lots of info on the AR15.com

I for on do not want to be a test case...

Doing what I was doing for a long time I got to ATF all the time and deal with this stuff all the time.

 

A STATEMENT FROM BUSHMASTER REGARDING MACHINEGUN PARTS

The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even one M16 component, it is a Machine Gun. If you own an AR15 from any manufacturer, check to make sure there are no M16 components in it's assemblies. If there are, remove them immediately. Machine them to AR configuration, or replace them and destroy the M16 components. Refer to the illustrations below to determine if you have M16 components in your assemblies. If you have any questions about your parts, give us a call and we'll be glad to supply you with the legally acceptable parts.
Sales of M16 components by Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC will only be made to the following categories of customers: (1) Class 3 (NFA) Dealer, (2) Individual who has a registered NFA weapon, (3) Federal Firearms Licensee with a customer who has a registered NFA weapon.

Link to the above with other information:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...g=__zxsgs0FoB8XxPfZwPTVdZ3zYUvg=&sa=X&ei=igSCTa6GB4Gz0QHwyenGCA&ved=0CCoQ9QEwAg

 

I hate it for the guy who got busted, as he probably bought the gun used and had no idea it was an NFA item. I don't know the facts, but more than likely I'll bet it was a semi conversion of an M2, quite a few were sold back in the day and then the ATF made the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" ruling. Simply having the gun with "M2" stamped on the receiver makes it a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF, regardless of whether it is semi-auto only in it's firing.

Ditto...

Unless it had some type of marking or selector to indicate full auto I wouldn't know the difference!!

 

This it good info on the ar15 site and has some pic

Guys I have seen what can happen......

http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

 

Ditto...

Unless it had some type of marking or selector to indicate full auto I wouldn't know the difference!!

In that case if he just got it and had a paper trail....

Maybe it had been around for years and a family sold it off, the guy that carried it back took the link off so it would only fire SA and no one that did not know anything about old gun would have a clue, you could play with it, shoot it, its SA.....
Then someone looks and sees it is a M2 or M3, what a No No......
that is a FA.......
\Then you are in it deep/////