Reloaders screwed by manufacturers.... | Carolina Shooters Club

Reloaders screwed by manufacturers....

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Dean Goodman, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. Dean Goodman

    Dean Goodman Registered Member

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    No secret that the margin for loaded ammo is way bigger than reloading supplies... been sending emails to manufacturers telling them I've got notifications everywhere and nobody has anything.... so where the H*LL are they shipping product to??
     
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  2. 45/70hunter

    45/70hunter Registered Member

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    Natchez has a good stock of powder available...
     
  3. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    You basically answered your own question...... Where can they make the most money?? DUH...
     
  4. Todd

    Todd Registered Member

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    Well today they ain't got shit! haha
     
  5. MD Vickery

    MD Vickery Registered Member

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    The problem seems to be that there isn't ANY ammunition ANYWHERE! I've checked shops in Craven, Onslow, Pender and New Hanover counties. There isn't any. The idea that all the new gun owners created the demand hardly holds water. Where did they get it? Not from any lgs I've seen.
     
  6. page392

    page392 Registered Member

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    supply and demand.... the demand is there , the dealers are creating the shortage! I looked on gunbroker last night , I'm not gonna throw names around but a local dealer has "nothing in stock" at his store ... But he has primers on gunbroker for sale at 5x the retail price... powder at 3x retail! makes me wanna go up there with my primers and powder and tell him ... " here, put these on gunbroker with ur stuff that's not in stock"
     
  7. jtkazanjian

    jtkazanjian Registered Member

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    Ammo manufacturer business model. Make one bullet sell one bullet. Create a shortage then demand increases charge more money.
    Wouldn't you think in years of plenty they would have had the ability to stack ammo far and deep. Or knowing how the political climate has been over the past 10 or so years. They would have added more equipment to be ready for the possible spike in demand. This year isn't the first time demand has gone up. Nope we just get these sorry videos of were trying our best.
     
  8. SourwoodTom

    SourwoodTom Registered Member

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    I read somewhere that there were seven million new, first-time gun buyers in the past year. Go to your local shop and see the demand. Our local range/shop can't keep guns in stock - everything sells almost immediately.

    If every new shooter buys 2 boxes of ammo (100 rounds), that's 700,000,000 rounds of ammo (700,000,000 bullets, 700,000,000 primers, tons of powder) just for the new shooters. Everyone else is buying, shooting, and hoarding. Billions & Trillions of rounds. Every single round needs a brass casing, a primer, a projectile, and at least several grains of powder. When you buy five boxes instead of the two you would normally buy, you are part of the problem.

    All the suppliers are running wide open, 7 days/week, 3 shifts. You just don't add to a production facility. New machines must be ordered and built. Machines cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. They don't make commercial ammo on a Lee Pro 1000. Buildings must be built or expanded. It takes, literally, a couple years to expand a manufacturing facility - even if the permitting, zoning, construction stuff goes well. Employees and technicians must be hired and trained. Their benefit packages funded. Primers, especially, deal with hazardous materials - get that by the local government quickly.

    Then add the business modelling. Suppose there is another "Trump" elected (wouldn't that be nice), and demand goes down. Suppose, God forbid, there is government action that restricts sales/purchases. Investments in equipment and infrastructure sit idle while the payments on the loans are due. Manufacturers have to be profitable to stay in business. Tough decisions for them in uncertain times. When things are slow, profits are down. They just can't go balls-to-the-walls and make ammo they might not sell. How do they pay for storage?

    Probably no conspiracies. Probably no nefarious actions by manufacturers. It is simply the decisions capitalists must make to be profitable and stay in the game for the long run.

    BTW - Manufacturers haven't increased prices significantly. It is the resellers who are taking advantage.
     
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  9. Frank Powers

    Frank Powers Registered Member

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    Actually manufacturing stockpiles of unsold merchandise is a terrible business model.
     
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  10. SourwoodTom

    SourwoodTom Registered Member

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    Unfortunately our government schools no longer teach economic principles. They just teach that business is bad, businessmen are evil, and profit is a bad thing.

    They teach that the solution to everything is government intervention. What if the government tried to fix the ammo shortage?
     
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  11. cocopuff

    cocopuff Registered Member

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    Are all the reloading supplies made overseas being bought up as well?
     
  12. jtkazanjian

    jtkazanjian Registered Member

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    Wow that was a long winded post. You just quoted the whole video on YouTube from the guy at federal.

    4 million new babies are born in America every year. If each baby eats 2 eggs a day every day of the year that a total of 2,920,000,000 new eggs we have to produce every year. How do they keep up it must be impossible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  13. jtkazanjian

    jtkazanjian Registered Member

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    I guess we have never been to a Walmart, Costco, target, Lowe's, or a home Depot.
    Not having enough merchandise to sell is a way bigger problem to have. Then having to much.

    Ammo and reloading supplies is not like storing eggs. No one is going to know the difference from ammo made last year to ammo made this year.
    I have 30-06 ammo made in 1943. I want to sell it because the storage cost is getting to high.
     
  14. cocopuff

    cocopuff Registered Member

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    Not when one can corner/expand the market with claims of shortages.
     
  15. cocopuff

    cocopuff Registered Member

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    Yes, I think all reloading components would be considered durable goods.
     
  16. SourwoodTom

    SourwoodTom Registered Member

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    Nobody has any evidence of these hidden stockpiles, or of slowed production - just theories.

    Spent 40 years in manufacturing, consulting, and machine building. Also a lifetime shooter and gun enthusiast. Just sharing my somewhat knowledgeable opinion.

    As for eggs, chickens multiply exponentially and cheaply - flawed analogy. Better analogy would be toilet paper. That shortage ended, so will this. Different economic curve, but same dynamics in play. Go try to buy a C8 Vette....reckon GM is creating shortages or is the demand higher than the production capabilities of the company. Don't know how old you are, but in the 70's all of our four car manufacturers had lots (literally) full of autos that weren't selling. They almost all went out of business, AMC basically did. Huge investments in unsold product cost a lot of money, mostly borrowed money that must be paid back whether the sales are there or not.

    Smarter folks prepare. To prepare for this, one would have purchased Russian primers in multiple lots of 5000 before the Obama administration choked them off, bullets when metal prices were lower in the 90's, picked up your (and your buddies') brass at the range, and purchased your powder in 8lb canisters by the dozen. I did, and the shortage isn't affecting me. Between USPSA and a couple trips to the range weekly, I often shoot a couple hundred rounds a week -- and many of my friends do so too.

    By the way, I also have a stockpile of eggs (powdered, of course) so I can get through that shortage if it occurs. I hope your only food source isn't what's in your refrigerator.

    Our local range (On Target, Asheville) gets ammo from time to time. The owner shares his supply troubles, and as a volume dealer, has great resources and insight to the problem. He's not blaming manufacturers' created shortages. People are scared, they are hoarding when they can, and there are lots more folks in the market.
     
  17. Frank Powers

    Frank Powers Registered Member

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    so you quit selling stock to pile it up in a warehouse, then ramp up production to make more product to pile higher in a warehouse, so paying for extra labor and extra materials without revenue,,,,,,,, nope, ain't happening. It would take all the companies conspiring on a massive scale to pull that off anyway, so if say Federal is piling up stock, Winchester could sell like crazy, making Federals warehouse full worth less,,,,, these companies ain't doing that. Resellers are the ones making money here, not manufacturers.
     
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  18. Frank Powers

    Frank Powers Registered Member

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    I would think it is, since it is even harder to find than ammo. What's the point of holding it when people are dying to pay 4 times normal prices for it? And how do you get every manufacturer in every country to make ammo and related products and not sell any of it to cover the costs? You don't.

    I think our dumbass government has every body and their twin sisters scrambling to get ahold of every firearm and bullet they can find because they are expecting massive attacks on, and changes to, the 2nd amendment, and part of the demo plan is restricting manufacturing to limit supply with covid restrictions. We saw a sample of this 12 years ago, without the pandemic, but the result is very much the same. Hell, I know people with thousands and thousands of rounds who are buying everything they can get their hands on, and some of them out shooting almost as much as they used to. So everybody is buying, new folks and old folks, and everything sells at any price. That is why the shelves stay empty and prices stay high, and actually trending upwards it looks to me like.

    So no, these companies are not that large in comparison to many manufacturing companies and don't operate on that large of a profit margin to be able to stockpile for weeks or months without revenue.

    No, if any hoarding is going on buy gun companies, it's in cash for legal fees to defend their rights to stay in business to supply us with what we feel we may need to defend our freedom and civil rights.
     
  19. SourwoodTom

    SourwoodTom Registered Member

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    Too much logic. Shows an understanding of economics, manufacturing, and social interactions/phenomena. Unfortunately, it will be lost here as so many really want to believe that the ammo producers are against us. They don't realize that without us, they pretty much cease to exist, or are at least diminished to the point of unprofitability.

    Suppose car makers intentionally made unreliable cars so that we would all bring them to the service bay for costly repairs.....oh, some people believe that too.

    Thanks for your reasoned responses to this thread.
     
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  20. Dean Goodman

    Dean Goodman Registered Member

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    They did exactly that for years... until Japan gobbled up their market share with fuel efficient reliable cars. Ask anyone who's had trouble with a plastic intake manifold on their car in the last 5 years.
     
  21. cocopuff

    cocopuff Registered Member

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    I, like many have a hard time believing the shortage is again a product of panic without any proof other than the remarks of a corporate mouthpiece. How about some facts and figures that show the numbers made, the distribution numbers and the numbers sold to the retailers. My bet is somewhere in the line is pure thievery and if it is the retailers that are guilty then name them and press the makers to stop their trade with them. I know my trade with the crooks will stop once known as well as many others. The recreational shooters are what keeps this industry going and from what I know and read we are getting the shaft as usual. Nobody out in the community has yet to tell me why no foreign supplies are being distributed to take up the supposed slack of available goods. Until then I will continue to claim foul.
     
  22. Frank Powers

    Frank Powers Registered Member

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    Well, if I look at the manufacturers website and see their suggested retail prices, and then look at resellers advertised prices which are alot higher, that's about all the research I need to see what's going on. How can Academy and others still sell at very close to the same prices from a year ago? It's because the manufacturers they buy from have not jacked the prices up 2 or 3 hundred percent.

    Here is an example which to me proves it's not the manufacturer jacking up prices, at least not all of them anyway. I bought this very box of Slugs last monday for the amount marked on the box.
    slugs.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  23. Dean Goodman

    Dean Goodman Registered Member

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    Somewhat true, but my original post wasn't capitalism bashing... just that the preference seems to be shipping to ammo manufacturers at the expense of zero reloading supplies being sent to distributors... primers, then powder, and now many types of rifle bullets have become unicorn dust.
     
  24. David K

    David K Registered Member

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    They don't have any more powder then anyone else.
     
  25. David K

    David K Registered Member

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    You are dead on! I called speer the other day and reamed them good. They are so arrogant about how they are doing their best. I haven't seen Gold dot .223 bullets in a year....I go on their site ever week. When I find a another good bonded bullet I'm done with them.
    They don't care but they will soon! Things will change and I will never forget their games. All they had to do was throw the reloaders a bone from time to time and they didn't. I told them exactly what you said......they don't give a crap.
    They'll get their just due when things go back to normal.
     
  26. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Club Subscribed Club Subscribed

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    I personally think ya'll forgot the old saying, "those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
    Did you not learn anything from the last shortage about 5 or 6 years ago?? Evidently not.....
     
  27. SourwoodTom

    SourwoodTom Registered Member

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    Helped a buddy out with a couple hundred large pistol primers so he could shoot for another week or two in our Monday night match. Told him this was the last time. He learned nothing from 2008, just kept buying a couple boxes of 100 primers every couple weeks. When primers come back, I'll bet he buys several thousand -- so will everyone else. They'll also buy 1000's of bullets and cases of powder. They'll continue the shortage.

    Thousands of guys watching wiki ammo. When ammo is available reasonably, it is gone. Hoarded.

    How many of you guys would by ten or twenty times as much as usual if you could? How many of you will buy 5000 primers, 8 pounders of powder, couple thousand 9mm's or 5.56's to make sure you don't get caught again. They call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". There is a shortage because everyone is buying, we're just not lucky enough to be "everyone" at the proper time.

    If I was a CEO, COO, or CFO, I'd be going ball-t0-the walls to sell everything I could and make as much money as I possibly could. That's what businesses do.
     

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