omg yesPresident-elect Donald Trump urged the government on Tuesday to cancel an order with Boeing for a revamped Air Force One - one of the most prominent symbols of the U.S. presidency - saying costs were out of control.
It was the latest example of Trump using his podium, often via brief Twitter messages, to rattle companies and foreign countries as he seeks to shake up business as usual in Washington. Trump, who takes office on Jan. 20, took aim at what he called cost overruns even though the plane is only in development stages.
"Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion (£3.15 billion). Cancel order!" Trump said on Twitter. It was not immediately clear what prompted the timing of his complaint.
IrishCannon
omg yes
That should be a four-fer price...you know, four fer $4 billion. That would make it *somewhat* understandable.
I guess you can come close to "everything proof" if you throw enough money at it.
I don't mean to see an American company lose a lucrative contract but when said contract is paid with pieces of my ass that I contributed to the cause, I have to speak up. Some bastard at Boeing thought that landed their retirement contract. I'd love to see their face after this rant!
I guess you can come close to "everything proof" if you throw enough money at it.
I don't mean to see an American company lose a lucrative contract but when said contract is paid with pieces of my ass that I contributed to the cause, I have to speak up. Some bastard at Boeing thought that landed their retirement contract. I'd love to see their face after this rant!
Wasteful military spending. Good move by Trump on this one, hitting the military industrial complex.
Well, since you brought it up..........
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201.../2016/12/06/pentagon-reportedly-buried-study-exposing-125-billion-in-waste.html
.
...fou...four..four billion....no no no Mr President. ..there's a misunderstanding. We meant four million.....yeah..that's what we meant.....
DS
sent from the Honey Badger Galaxy
DS
sent from the Honey Badger Galaxy
Yep. Something I have not seen or heard of in quite some time. Interesting to see where this goes.
President elect Trump isn't telling the whole truth. It is two planes, and the cost is driven by security requirements.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ts/2016/dec/06/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweet-air-force-one-bo/
The devil is always in the details, if we pay attention.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...ness/columnists/ct-boeing-china-trump-robert-reed-1206-biz-20161205-column.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...k-boeings-stock-because-he-was-mad-about-a-news-article/?utm_term=.2410b91c8daf
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ts/2016/dec/06/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweet-air-force-one-bo/
The devil is always in the details, if we pay attention.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...ness/columnists/ct-boeing-china-trump-robert-reed-1206-biz-20161205-column.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...k-boeings-stock-because-he-was-mad-about-a-news-article/?utm_term=.2410b91c8daf
It's for 2 planes. (There's always two - the one the President is on has that call sign.) Still too much.
I wonder what sorts of communications, countermeasures, and defensive weapons are on it. It's a big plane for a few dozen people. Maybe that $4B includes air to air lasers or something. They have been working on them for many years and that's a perfect platform for first deployment - plenty of room, power, and budget for anything! If it does we'll never know since it's all classified.
I wonder what sorts of communications, countermeasures, and defensive weapons are on it. It's a big plane for a few dozen people. Maybe that $4B includes air to air lasers or something. They have been working on them for many years and that's a perfect platform for first deployment - plenty of room, power, and budget for anything! If it does we'll never know since it's all classified.
Remember there are two of them. Plus they call it the Air Force One "program" which to me means far more than a couple of jets. It would make it about 0.5% easier to listen to if it includes the C-17s, the support hangers, tools, equipment, etc. But then again, I gotta ask "what's wrong with the one we've got?" Don't say "because it's old."
He tweeted:
"Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. Cancel order!"
- Donald Trump, in a tweet, Dec. 6, 2016
Double check your source or review his tweets.
You know about these things much more than I do Don, but I think if anything, if the older aircraft system can accept it without a huge cost, retrofitting the existing aircraft with the GEnx engines they use on the Dash 8 seems like a good idea since they are more fuel efficient.
There are two planes in the presidential fleet. They are VC-35's, and they are the only two ever built at a unit cost of $325 million bones.
They were developed from the Boeing 747-200B aircraft. They were built in 1986, first flew in 1987, and were delivered in 1990.
That's a service life going on 27 years. The new plane is scheduled to actually replace the current VC-35's in 2024. This means the existing two planes will have been in service for 34 years.
That's a pretty long time for an aircraft, and they really ought to be replaced. Especially given what they're used for. Especially since there aren't any 747-200B aircraft operating anywhere in the world any more.
A service life of 34 years means the original cost of the planes come out to just about $956,000 a year on average. (We won't figure actual operating costs here.
Assuming a new price tag of $4 billion for two, each plane would cost $2 billion. That's just a smidgen over 6 times the cost of the current VC-35's. If each lasted 34 years, that would be $58.8 million a year.
So...what could be driving the projected cost so high?
First of all, these are THE ultimate in customization with respect to such an aircraft. They are not only truly two of a kind, but their customizations will FAR exceed those of even Saudi Oil Sheiks because their requirements will be radically different.
In addition to a totally customized interior designed to carry a plethora of government officials, as well as the President's family, for extended flight times which will most certainly be days, if not weeks, aloft, they will have a ton of other modifications such as:
- Air-to-air refueling capability
- Top of the line communications equipment (military and civilian)
- Top of the line computer network equipment (military and civilian)
- Top of the line military electronic countermeasures
- Hardened against EMP
That's just off the top of my head. I'm dead certain there are many other major modifications required for other systems and capabilities.
The only way Boeing (or any other major aircraft manufacturer) is able to compete on aircraft production at all is to streamline their production process to the ultimate level. These two aircraft, for all their outward appearances, will be utterly unique inside. That alone will contribute hugely to their cost. It's probably the biggest thing in common with the prices Saudi Oil Sheiks pay. But the modifications these planes will be receiving will far exceed those of Saudi Oil Sheiks.
And then, following their completion, they will both go through very arduous testing routines, which will thoroughly test and certify each and every system on board, as well as all the flight tests. That will NOT be a short process.
Now...is that worth $2 billion each?
I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't expect it to be less than $1 billion each. But that's just me.
But maybe Trump's position will yank a knot in the scrotes of those who might not be very adamant about keeping cost overruns down. That would be good.
They were developed from the Boeing 747-200B aircraft. They were built in 1986, first flew in 1987, and were delivered in 1990.
That's a service life going on 27 years. The new plane is scheduled to actually replace the current VC-35's in 2024. This means the existing two planes will have been in service for 34 years.
That's a pretty long time for an aircraft, and they really ought to be replaced. Especially given what they're used for. Especially since there aren't any 747-200B aircraft operating anywhere in the world any more.
A service life of 34 years means the original cost of the planes come out to just about $956,000 a year on average. (We won't figure actual operating costs here.
Assuming a new price tag of $4 billion for two, each plane would cost $2 billion. That's just a smidgen over 6 times the cost of the current VC-35's. If each lasted 34 years, that would be $58.8 million a year.
So...what could be driving the projected cost so high?
First of all, these are THE ultimate in customization with respect to such an aircraft. They are not only truly two of a kind, but their customizations will FAR exceed those of even Saudi Oil Sheiks because their requirements will be radically different.
In addition to a totally customized interior designed to carry a plethora of government officials, as well as the President's family, for extended flight times which will most certainly be days, if not weeks, aloft, they will have a ton of other modifications such as:
- Air-to-air refueling capability
- Top of the line communications equipment (military and civilian)
- Top of the line computer network equipment (military and civilian)
- Top of the line military electronic countermeasures
- Hardened against EMP
That's just off the top of my head. I'm dead certain there are many other major modifications required for other systems and capabilities.
The only way Boeing (or any other major aircraft manufacturer) is able to compete on aircraft production at all is to streamline their production process to the ultimate level. These two aircraft, for all their outward appearances, will be utterly unique inside. That alone will contribute hugely to their cost. It's probably the biggest thing in common with the prices Saudi Oil Sheiks pay. But the modifications these planes will be receiving will far exceed those of Saudi Oil Sheiks.
And then, following their completion, they will both go through very arduous testing routines, which will thoroughly test and certify each and every system on board, as well as all the flight tests. That will NOT be a short process.
Now...is that worth $2 billion each?
I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't expect it to be less than $1 billion each. But that's just me.
But maybe Trump's position will yank a knot in the scrotes of those who might not be very adamant about keeping cost overruns down. That would be good.
Y'all know what would really be impressive? After he takes office and he has to fly overseas to meet some foreign leader(s), he decides to fly on American Airlines or one of the others and demands to fly in Economy just like everyone else. In addition, he tells all of his staff, the Secret Service, reporters, and anyone else going along that they'll have to do the same, and pay for the trip with money out of their own pocket. That would be epic. lol.
Yeah. I think Trump was referring to the program of replacing both planes and not just one. AF1 is just an easy way of saying it. I think, based on @Mr. Warren Peace previous post, that he understands that as well.
PROCUREMENT: Boeing Said to Offer Talks on Air Force One After Trump Tweets.
The US military already flies four "doomsday planes," capable of staying airborne while commanding any conflict up to and including a full-scale nuclear war. Militarized 747s with "what is likely the most complete and sophisticated spectrum of communications equipment ever flown," all four E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Posts together cost a little less than one billion in 1998 dollars.
But today we can't build a pair Air Force one jets for less than $3.2 billion?
Something doesn't seem right.
Posted at 10:07 am by Stephen Green
![Image]()
The Pentagon already is budgeting $3.2 billion for research and development, military construction and acquisition of two of the Air Force One planes through fiscal 2021, said Kevin Brancato, the lead government contracts analyst for Bloomberg Government. More money is anticipated in the two years after that. Boeing 747-8 planes average about $225 million each, he said, which means most of the expenses will go to outfitting the planes for presidential use.
The Air Force and Boeing are still conducting work to reduce the program's technical risks before the company is awarded an advanced development contract, Captain Michael Hertzog, a spokesman for the service branch, said in an e-mail. Budgeted spending can be expected "to change as the program matures with the completion of the risk reduction activities," he said.
"This is what an Air Force One costs," Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst at Teal Group, said of Trump's tweet. "There have been no cost overruns. The ability to fly the president during a war is fundamentally expensive."
The Boeing executives who contacted Trump officials suggested that the price of the new planes could be reduced if the Air Force and Secret Service revise their specifications for the aircraft, the people familiar with the discussions said.
The Air Force and Boeing are still conducting work to reduce the program's technical risks before the company is awarded an advanced development contract, Captain Michael Hertzog, a spokesman for the service branch, said in an e-mail. Budgeted spending can be expected "to change as the program matures with the completion of the risk reduction activities," he said.
"This is what an Air Force One costs," Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst at Teal Group, said of Trump's tweet. "There have been no cost overruns. The ability to fly the president during a war is fundamentally expensive."
The Boeing executives who contacted Trump officials suggested that the price of the new planes could be reduced if the Air Force and Secret Service revise their specifications for the aircraft, the people familiar with the discussions said.
The US military already flies four "doomsday planes," capable of staying airborne while commanding any conflict up to and including a full-scale nuclear war. Militarized 747s with "what is likely the most complete and sophisticated spectrum of communications equipment ever flown," all four E-4 Advanced Airborne Command Posts together cost a little less than one billion in 1998 dollars.
But today we can't build a pair Air Force one jets for less than $3.2 billion?
Something doesn't seem right.
Posted at 10:07 am by Stephen Green
It's actually not his ride. They wouldn't be in service til after a possible second term of his.
I'm just curious how old the current AF1's are, how many flight hours they have, and if they NEED to be replaced by the time the current "cancel the order" jets would be ready (2024+).
I read something comparing AF1 costs to the Stealth bomber. It does seem pretty pricey. IMO Trump just likes to fire some warning shots to keep people honest. It is exactly what Presidents and Gov't officials should be doing when they spend our money in these non-competitive bid situations. But hey, if the AF1 program cost $4B so be it. But if President Trump uses it as his non-stop family vacation tool like the current bozo then we should all call him out too. Hopefully this is all a sign that Trump is a little more frugal and old school than the wanna be royalty currently infecting the Whitehouse.
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