[Noway2]

As I mentioned in a recent thread, my parents recently became new gun owners and they've been talking about having me store their guns temporarily while they move out of state (to NC). This got me thinking about the concept and legalities of a firearm transfer at what point does it become an official transfer? Some examples:
Loaning a gun to a friend, both in same state?
Loaning a gun to a friend in another state (not shipped)?
Friend brings guns to your house and stores them in your safe?
You go to friend's house and he loans you guns that you store for him?
What about if these involve different states?

For the sake of argument, none of these are sales or taking ownership or possession and the recipient would have no justification to try to sell them or otherwise dispose of them. They would remain the property of the actual owner.

It also got me thinking, without gun registration, why would any of this make a hill of beans difference and hence isn't the 4473 in effect backdoor registration?

 

[jcalvinmarks]

ATF has a FAQ on their website here, but I'll give you the money shot:

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.

isn't the 4473 in effect backdoor registration?

Yes and no. No, because the ATF doesn't generally compile and retain those records, they remain in the custody of the dealer. And the ATF is generally prohibited from maintaining a registry of Title I firearms.

On the other hand, yes, because ATF has ready access to 4473s for any of a number of reasons (criminal investigation, FFL goes out of business, etc.)

 

[Catfish]

Guns don't come with titles like a car, so "transfer" means my hand to yours.

 

[fishgutzy]

Fed and state definitions can be pretty weird.
Are you in NC now? Probably shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not currently living in Washington state.
Probably some good legal eagles on here that know the details.
In Washington state, 594 makes all transfers to other than a spouse or minor child illegal unless done through an FFL and all fees and transfer taxes paid. This applies even to letting a friend shoot your pistol at the range, unless the pistol is permanently stored at the range.
The law is written such that if you loan a gun to a friend or adult family member, it must go through an FFL, be taxed and background check fees paid. And the same process in reverse when the gun is returned. Failure to do so in this case would constitute 2 violation and thus a felony with up to 10 years in prison.

 

[Silver_Bullet]

Transfer takes place when ownership changes. Holding someones possessions for them is not transferring ownership, and would certainly not require a 4473 for holding guns for your out of state parents. The only legal implications of someone holding the firearms, is if they are allowed possession of those firearms. They can bring them into NC if they are moving, no issues there, and you can hold them for them while they are moving.

4473 isn't complete registration. It is a background check when buying from a dealer and identifies the original purchaser. Its stored with the FFL for so many years, unless they go out of business, it is then sent to the ATF. I personally don't like the fact that the gun info is placed on them and stored. If the gun is sold privately within state, there is no registration or government records tracking it. The only records are private between individuals, and personally I don't want any responsibility of keeping such private personal information as an individual.

 

[Catfish]

They can bring them into NC if they are moving, no issues there, and you can hold them for them while they are moving.

um... no. don't do that. or if you do, keep quiet about it. I'm almost positive that's bad advice.

 

[jcalvinmarks]

um... no. don't do that. or if you do, keep quiet about it. I'm almost positive that's bad advice.

Why do you say that?

I mean, as a practical matter it may be problematic for a few different reasons I can think of, depending on who these friends are. But I don't see what the legal issue is.

 

[Catfish]

You quoted the ATF FAQ above... that's where I get my info. When a person who is a resident of one state hands a gun over to a person who is a resident of another state, that's an interstate transfer. The whole "I was just holding on to it for them" thing won't count as a lawful sporting purpose in my opinion if the law gets involved. They probably won't but the OP wasn't asking "what can I get away with"


I'd love to learn that I'm way off base on this because as I understand the law on this it's screwed up big time.

 

[jcalvinmarks]

The whole "I was just holding on to it for them" thing won't count as a lawful sporting purpose in my opinion if the law gets involved.

I see your point.

Although I would submit that "collecting" is a lawful sporting purpose.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, my brief Google search didn't turn up any helpful definitions for what "sporting purpose" means for this purpose, so, like most things, I suspect it's largely at the discretion of whichever ATF Agent you have the pleasure of meeting when it becomes an issue, until and unless a judge decides to slap some sense into them.

I'm confident enough that this is legal (and even more confident that it would never be an issue) that I would do this if I had a friend of family member who was moving and wanted me to hang on to their guns for a few days so the movers don't steal them. But I am not confident enough that this is legal to recommend it to someone else.

 

[WNC Seabee]

Guns don't come with titles like a car, so "transfer" means my hand to yours.

I don't believe this is true. A "transfer" of any property is not merely temporary possession, it implies a change of ownership.

If I loan you a hammer, it's still mine. Just because we're alking about a firearm doesn't change the meaning of ownership.

 

[613jmm]

As long as they physically bring the firearms to your location, with the intent of moving here, and they are being stored without the intent of being sold, gifted, or traded to you or anyone else in the state, I don't see that there would be a problem. If you were prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm, obviously that could create a problem. But even then, I am not sure they would be charged with anything.

 

[Noway2]

Thanks everybody I appreciate the responses. I find this to be an interesting subject given all the controversy that has arisen in some states like WA recently and the interstate aspect adds a level of complexity. I think the "any state" phrase along with the "loan" portion is what it really comes down to, but I can also appreciate that the current legal quagmire could make anyone uncomfortable. I also find that ATF position to be somewhat surprising given the emphasis put on FFL transfers but can see where that applies to sales, not temporary non ownership situations.

 

[Noway2]

As long as they physically bring the firearms to your location, with the intent of moving here, and they are being stored without the intent of being sold, gifted, or traded to you or anyone else in the state, I don't see that there would be a problem.

Interesting point about them bringing it. Do you think it matters who carries it across state lines?

 

[JamesLFlowers]

This conversation really has me wondering about my own situation. Between my father and I we have guns in the safe at my house and at his house. No real concerns, by us at least, over what guns are "owned" by who. They are simply stored where ever they happen to be and shot by who ever takes them out of the safe to shoot them. And the where can change as we shift guns about due shooting matches, hunting seasons, teaching family kids to shoot, safes overflowing, etc. The fact that there is some arbitrary boundary line between us has never been given much thought.