I used to think you had to have a pistol marked lower, but now I'm told that doesn't matter. So if I take my stock off and just use a pistol type buffer tube did I just turn my rifle into a pistol and now I can use any barrel length upper I want?
Flashpoint
No. You turned it into an AOW (any other weapon), which is subject to NFA rules. Once a rifle (at inception), always a rifle (or an AOW). You cannot take a rifle and make it into a pistol, legally speaking.
Start with a virgin (or pistol) lower, and build a pistol. From there you can make a rifle. That rifle can then be made back into a pistol.
Don't try to rationalize it. The entire SBR framework is built on a nonsensical law. Why is a pistol in .357Sig not subject to NFA, but a rimfire singleshot bolt action rifle with a 15" barrel subject to NFA?
That's my understanding, with the addition of no forward grip...I think....
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You can not turn you rifle into a pistol, there is many posts about it......
When you fall under 26" overall length you are in the pistol class.
If you added a pistol buffer tube with the 16" barrel you would still be over the 26" and you could still call it a rifle or Other.
Other is anything that does not have a stock yet is over 26" over all length.
To add the pistol buffer and then a pistol barrel you would be making a pistol from a rifle and then is Not legal.
When you fall under 26" overall length you are in the pistol class.
If you added a pistol buffer tube with the 16" barrel you would still be over the 26" and you could still call it a rifle or Other.
Other is anything that does not have a stock yet is over 26" over all length.
To add the pistol buffer and then a pistol barrel you would be making a pistol from a rifle and then is Not legal.
So what's the legal designation? If you take the stock and tube off and are under 26" OAL - it's not a rifle, so it can't be a SBR. But it most certainly is a NFA firearm, so it must be a AOW, correct?
Gun is not designed to run with out a buffer tube, so it would be called a project or broken gun......
It would still be a rifle, just not function.
the 26" rule is other, or just Firearm. But not AOW.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html
Yeah, duh on the tube. Thanks for the letter; didn't realize they had a separate other designation from AOW.
at one time they called them Other, like on a 4473, and it was a "other" Yet not AOW that is what the class of the 1919a4 is.
It is one that you can run a short barrel, just need to keep the 26" length so a barrel about 10" is just fine, but no stock.
Thanks for the responses. So how can this nonsense possibly be enforced? How could anyone know what my lower started out as? I just bought a "multi" marked lower, it wasn't sold to me as a rifle or anything specific. I plan on using it for a pistol build, but if I used it for a rifle first how could anyone possibly be the wiser?
Lets look at it this way.
Just to go along with your thinking.
If, you were breaking in my house and come threw my door and I hit you with 3 rounds of 300 blackout in a 8" barrel, you you thing you could tell at all what the barrel size was?
I have killed a many a deer, DRT in their tracks, all with the 300, plan to use a pistol next year, I would bet they will not know what the barrel size was.
Because you are talking and asking about it on a public forum....
Also maybe someone may have seen it or shot it as a rifle, any pictures of it?
Could you pass a lie detector test, do you have anything to loose?
DO you like to do the correct thing.
ANd last if you break on gun law what is to say about all the rest like a SBR or FA?
Just asking....
I try to run clean.
Simmer down it was a hypothetical because I'm just trying to understand the law. Nothing I said demonstrates any intent. In fact I stated I intend to use it for a pistol.
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10-4
Was just going off your first post that stated:
Just wanted to be sure we are clear and to look at the big picture.
No one would be the wiser but for your leaving evidence around as MG gave examples thereof.
But do you really want to worry about your posts, any pics, maybe taking it to the range, etc., when you can buy a virgin lower so cheaply right now?
I wouldn't characterize following NFA laws as the 'correct' thing. Just the CYA thing. It would be the 'correct' thing if violation of the law caused some harm to others (i.e., a mala in se law).
I view the NFA law as asinine. But I'll obey it because I don't want to catch a felony charge.
Maybe I should have said legal thing....
As I think a lot of laws suck, but I do not want my dog or the wife out of the street cause the ATF bust me and take everything I own or I spend it to fight....
SO you try to stay legal and low risk...
Someone on arfcom made a diagram that laid out everything related to ar pistols and legalities of add ons or modifications. Ill see if I can find it..
Mine runs fine and is plenty accurate out to 50 yrds (haven't run it any farther). I haven't run it through the chronograph yet to see what speeds im getting but stabilization is fine (to 50). Plus, it can be concealed while loaded with a CHP, throw it in a tennis racket bag or a laptop case and keep it in the truck/back seat when on the road. It's probably overkill but id rather have it and not need it..
To be clear an AR Pistol with a verticle broom handle grip on the stock is an AOW. Somehow the AFG from magpul is allowed and there is a letter regarding it.
Also to be clear legally once you put a stock on an AR pistol it is a rifle and can never be a pistol again. THe switching back and forth is only allowed for a few select models like the thompson contender package that came as a kit with both a stock and pistol conversion. There are also letters floating around regarding this.
As far as the 26in rule. A rifle is any firearm with at least a 16 in barrel and an overall length of 26in. If the barrel is shorter than 16 or the overall length is less than 26 then it becomes an NFA firearm. Less than 16in barrel is a SBR. Less than 26in overall it is a weapon made from a rifle.
As mentioned lowers are so cheap and easy to build why risk anyone finding out, just build a dedicated pistol lower to prevent the possiblility of that 10 years of having bubba as a roommate and $250k fine.
This is the handbook on NFA items https://www.atf.gov/content/firearm...s/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook
Chapter 2 defines rifles and shotguns.
Also to be clear legally once you put a stock on an AR pistol it is a rifle and can never be a pistol again. THe switching back and forth is only allowed for a few select models like the thompson contender package that came as a kit with both a stock and pistol conversion. There are also letters floating around regarding this.
As far as the 26in rule. A rifle is any firearm with at least a 16 in barrel and an overall length of 26in. If the barrel is shorter than 16 or the overall length is less than 26 then it becomes an NFA firearm. Less than 16in barrel is a SBR. Less than 26in overall it is a weapon made from a rifle.
As mentioned lowers are so cheap and easy to build why risk anyone finding out, just build a dedicated pistol lower to prevent the possiblility of that 10 years of having bubba as a roommate and $250k fine.
This is the handbook on NFA items https://www.atf.gov/content/firearm...s/firearms-industry/guides/publications-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook
Chapter 2 defines rifles and shotguns.
Did you read the letter about the vert grip on a "Firearm" or AR pistol with a 26" or longer barrel?
Your thoughts? you did not cover that.
I thought we decided in the previous AR pistol thread that you can in fact turn a rifle into a 'pistol'. However, it's no longer legally called a pistol. It's called a AOW. It's all terminology, and paying the government for the right to do so. You have to pay the $200 stamp and wait forever. Which means it makes no sense at all to do so. Just buy a $60 virgin lower and start from scratch, as DP says. But you CAN turn a rifle into a 'pistol', if you just have to, and are willing to pay for and wait for the stamp. Now if you're talking about the legal term 'pistol', then no you cannot do so.
Not sure what you are referring to? A 26" long barrel on a pistol? If it is a pistol and you put a verticle grip on it then it is an AOW. If it is 26" long overall and 16" barrel it is not NFA if it can be shouldered. How would you make a AR pistol that is 26" overall? A 20" barrel? Not sure where that would fall but who would do that?
If is does not have a stock on it, then it is a pistol, a rifle by definition is design to be fired from the shoulder, no stock and it is a pistol and verticle grip is not allowed no matter how long it is or short it is.
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