was a bad week, first the crash at 8A7 and then that one

 

Yep. This one near my house could have possibly been prevented. By saying that, I am certainly not knocking the guys working ATC. There's at least one member on here who worked in ATC out of Raleigh. I think, but I'm not sure, that it could be a policy/procedural issue. But in my opinion, the policy/procedure needs changed. Just as I honestly think that when a private pilot goes for his ticket, it includes an instrument rating. In other words, do away with the VFR only license all together and include the instrument rating with the private pilot certificate. Not saying that was a contributing factor here in this case. It very well may have just been a common case of spatial disorientation with an IFR rated pilot. But dang. GSO approach was handling all kinds of flights yesterday when this happened, including some training flights out of Shiloh, Burlington, Lexington, etc... It just seems that if someone could have picked up earlier that this guy and his family were having trouble, someone could have got him away from the busy approach frequency and helped him out before he got slow and low. The ceiling was higher to the west. Winston may have even been an option for him, I'm not sure.

I contacted LiveATC about the communication. I received an unsatisfactory response. It seems that they will yank recordings at the request of family members. The only problem I can see with that is the fact that family members would only present such a request after they already heard the heartbreaking ATC recording. That's unacceptable in my opinion.

 

qball could you please explain in a little more detail .thanks

 

See my post above. I, without any doubt, based on your previous posts, hold you in high regard as far as your knowledge in such matters. I knew there was another member on here who worked ATC out of Raleigh and since he's a professional with the subject at hand, I'm glad he chimed in as well. Anything I posted above is strictly my unprofessional opinion and nothing else. I just thought it important to post, that's all.

 

I couldn't find the recording, do you have a link? PM is ok.

 

Link is provided above.

 

I actually responded to the one in 2011. Probably the most interesting call of my career so far. I'll never forget turning into the neighborhood and being reminded of 9-11 because the neighbors were running up the road toward sandy ridge and one of the engines in the middle of the road still on fire. It was pretty crazy that's for sure.

 

That was another interesting aircraft accident. A Beechcraft Baron flying into Winston with a very low ceiling and holding. Then the pilot, probably from some passenger pressure, decides to shoot for Greensboro. I remember that day vividly. It was one of those days where the clouds were just above the tree tops. She requested a clearance after being told that everyone was "getting in" and she received said clearance. She attempted to shoot an ILS 5L approach into Greensboro while piloting a Beechcraft Baron with a 100 foot overcast ceiling. Bad day for her, her passenger, and both of their families.

 

Can someone put this incident in laymans terms.

Did he get lost? Was he unaware of his altitude? Was it a visibility situation like Kennedy Jr?

Sorry, interested in aviation but pretty clueless.

 

Can someone put this incident in laymans terms.

Did he get lost? Was he unaware of his altitude? Was it a visibility situation like Kennedy Jr?

Sorry, interested in aviation but pretty clueless.

Pretty much everything you posted above.

 

some of our armchair questions also involve fuel, he would have been pretty low at this point. The flightaware is below:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N36HT

 

He makes a call for "no gyro vectors" at the end of the 1530Z recording, where the ATC is instructing him to "turn left." Typical instruction would be to turn left/right until told to level out. Makes me wonder if he lost instruments and coupled with the low ceiling just got disoriented.

Discussion with my father (30yrs+ as an aircraft mechanic and private pilot) came to a good point -- after that distance he would be critical on fuel unless the plane was equipped with long range tanks. A Bonanza holds 74gal of fuel and based on normal burn rate he would have been well into his 30min. reserve at this point, even moreso if he was vectored around WX.

Also makes me wonder if in the panic he forgot the first rule of in-flight emergencies -- fly the airplane. Debris field didn't seem to indicate the plane spun in, looked like a slow speed stall that pancaked it into the ground.

 

We all know the reliability of witnesses. That said, there were witnesses that stated they witnessed the aircraft flying very low with the typical "wings rocking" back and forth before the aircraft "spun" into the ground. According to what I read, the aircraft exploded on impact. That would answer the question about fuel if that actually occurred. But that's just what I read, so none of what I just typed can be considered "factual".

 

ironically, I'm doing the "radio communications" block in my training at the moment, and a strong emphasis on don't be afraid to ask ATC for help.

 

Dave thanks for the link. I have listened to both recordings, transcribed the pertinent transmissions and here are my thoughts. First, my opinion is just that, but it is based on 26 years as a controller and hundreds of such investigations.

(Note: the times I list are not clock times. They are minutes into the recording. The entire event covers approximately 32 minutes from initial contact with GSO Approach to radar contact lost.)

2:56 Aircraft checked in with GSO. He sounded fine. Asked about assigned runway and acknowledged the ATIS.

5:14 Aircraft advised ATC he had a request and confirmed runway assignment.

10:40 Aircraft given a heading for sequence into GSO.

13:20 Aircraft given frequency change. Response was normal and there was no indication of any problem.

13:49 A/C checked in on new frequency. Sounded fine.

15:14 A/C issued 3000. Responded fine “5 for 3, 6HT”

17:48 A/C issued traffic. He acknowledged normally and advised ATC he was going IMC. No indication of concern.

18:27 A/C was told traffic was no longer a factor, issued a heading and acknowledged all normally.

18:50 A/C reported level at 3000. No problem indicated.

19:09 A/C asked if ATC wanted him to stay at 3000. No problem noticed.

20:20 A/C issued approach clearance. He acknowledged heading, altitude and the clearance. No problems noted.

22:35 A/C asked “how do you like this route of flight?” (He seemed to realize that he was not on the localizer and got a vector to re-establish.)

This is also when he asked Right or Left to 360 (the heading given to re-establish on the localizer). He did not seem confused at all; instead the query seemed to be asking if it was a Left to reestablish from where he was or a Right, the long way around, for resequencing for a new approach. This would be pertinent to the rules about where you must be established on the localizer relative to the final approach fix. I saw it as a germane question based on his knowledge of where he was on the approach (which I do not know). I did not notice any consternation or concern in his voice. Actually, just the opposite. It appeared to me that he know he blew the “turn on” (and I can’t tell you how routine this is) and was asking for assistance to get back on the localizer.

23:24 A/C asked for vectors to final “if it would be possible.”

23:48 A/C again requested vector to final and was asked if he was on the Localizer. He responded saying “I believe I am”, but the controller told him he went through and he requested vectors for final.

24:17 ATC canceled the approach clearance and issued a heading and altitude for sequencing.

Again, the pilot sounded perfectly calm. Nothing in his voice alerted me to any imminent problem.

27:17 ATC asked the A/C if he was on a 230 heading. Response was “Neagative, and 36HT is close to…” (transmission was cut off).

27:40 A/C again requested vectors and was told he had to be level at 3000, that the altitude was showing 2500. Issued the altimeter. A/C acknowledged “6HT climbing to 3”. (Mikes note: This is the time I would have started thinking this guy was not a very good pilot, but again, nothing in his voice inflection told me he was stressed out about anything. If he was, this would have been the opportune time to tell me that he was having issues.)

28:00 A/C was asked if he was on a 230 heading now.

28:31 Altitude verified as 2900 and confirmed by pilot. This was a clear indicator that he had control and was climbing the aircraft as instructed.

29:31 ATC asked if the pilot could accept a no gyro vector to final (note: controller seemed to realize the guy was having a problem getting turned onto final by himself)

Pilot said that he could accept the turn and again did not exhibit any distress.

29:29 A/C was given a left turn. No acknowledgement.

29:44 A/C was instructed to maintain at least 2500. No acknowledgement.

30:01 A/C was issued a right turn. Acknowledged. Also, reported level at 2500. (In my opinion the pilot’s voice sounded like he had everything under control)

30:33 ATC issues Low Altitude Alert. No acknowledgement.

31:12/(1:05 into second recording) ATC issues climb to 4000 to “see if I can get you back up above the clouds.” No acknowledgement.

1:46 (second recording) ATC asked 36HT take the climb and reported the last tops report at 3500. No acknowledgement.

2:33 A/C asked if there is a nearby field for 36HT and was told GSO was the nearest, off his left wing, 7 miles. He was also given GSO weather.

3:10 Sounds of impact.

Attempts to contact A/c.

4:36 Radar contact lost issued.

Now my opinion. Up until the last few seconds, this was a routine general aviation flight. Nothing would have indicated, in any way, that this pilot needed special handling or was having any problems. The pilot clearly did not indicate such. His transmissions did not exhibit any undue stress that would have alerted me to any issues. Even his going through final was nothing more than an indicator that he was having problems capturing the localizer. Definitely not an emergent situation. A QA person might say that the controller had some phraseology errors (there are always those) but I could find no fault (given the limited information I have) on the part of ATC. The controller initiated no gyro vectors when it seemed the pilot was having trouble with the turn on to final, he issued a “check altitude” when necessary, he issued a Low Altitude Alert when required.

As far as I could see, everything was pretty routine all the way up to and including 30:01. Then, from 30:01 to 30:33 something happened causing the A/C to get to an unsafe altitude (still not advising ATC of any problem).

Then, at 2:33 (second recording) he asks about an airport and 37 seconds later it is effectively over.

I believe, based solely on this information, that ATC did their job, and did it well. I did not see the application, or misapplication of any law/rule/regulation that contributed to this situation. I do not the believe the controller was too busy to have handled this flight normally, because until the last few seconds, it was just that, a normal flight. I cannot think of anything that I believe should have been done that wasn’t, and I also do not believe there was anything that, if done different, would have changed the outcome of the event.

 

Dave thanks for the link. I have listened to both recordings, transcribed the pertinent transmissions and here are my thoughts. First, my opinion is just that, but it is based on 26 years as a controller and hundreds of such investigations.

This is also when he asked Right or Left to 360 (the heading given to re-establish on the localizer). He did not seem confused at all; instead the query seemed to be asking if it was a Left to reestablish from where he was or a Right, the long way around, for

Now my opinion. Up until the last few seconds, this was a routine general aviation flight. Nothing would have indicated, in any way, that this pilot needed special handling or was having any problems. The pilot clearly did not indicate such. His transmissions did not exhibit any undue stress that would have alerted me to any issues. Even his going through final was nothing more than an indicator that he was having problems capturing the localizer. Definitely not an emergent situation. A QA person might say that the controller had some phraseology errors (there are always those) but I could find no fault (given the limited information I have) on the part of ATC. The controller initiated no gyro vectors when it seemed the pilot was having trouble with the turn on to final, he issued a "check altitude" when necessary, he issued a Low Altitude Alert when required.

As far as I could see, everything was pretty routine all the way up to and including 30:01. Then, from 30:01 to 30:33 something happened causing the A/C to get to an unsafe altitude (still not advising ATC of any problem).

Then, at 2:33 (second recording) he asks about an airport and 37 seconds later it is effectively over.

I believe, based solely on this information, that ATC did their job, and did it well. I did not see the application, or misapplication of any law/rule/regulation that contributed to this situation. I do not the believe the controller was too busy to have handled this flight normally, because until the last few seconds, it was just that, a normal flight. I cannot think of anything that I believe should have been done that wasn't, and I also do not believe there was anything that, if done different, would have changed the outcome of the event.

Thanks for the evaluation Mike. I may have let my emotions affect my thoughts when I started this thread. Even though I have no connection to this guy, based on a previous experience with a close friend, these type of things when they happen close to home, tend to bother me a little. I really appreciate your professional thoughts on the matter. Take care...... Dave

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse. However, I thought I'd share my email correspondence between myself and LiveATC regarding the subject of this thread. This sort of stuff really gets to me in a bad way. Here ya go:

My initial email to LiveATC:

Not sure if LiveATC edits the ATC recordings to filter out items that may be disturbing to family members of crash victims. However, I thought it important to point out that a recording of ATC communications with an accident aircraft at KGSO on Monday September 7th, 2015 at 1603:10Z contains a gruesome transmission from the pilot of an aircraft that is in the process of crashing.

Their response:

We will do that in cases where the family contacts us. But the request does need to come from the family.

As uncomfortable as it may be, ATC recordings from LiveATC and from the FAA are frequently used in safety briefings and pilot training to work toward preventing future accidents that could happen in similar circumstances. As a pilot myself, I feel this is a critical part of training.

My response (my last):

That's fine if that's your policy. I don't agree with it, but I'm not running LiveATC, so I have no say in the matter. The only thing that I find troublesome is the fact that if a family requests that a recording be removed, that simply means that they had already heard the recording, thus prompting the family to call for it's removal. The news media loves this sort of stuff and many news organizations won't hesitate to put it out there for all, including family members of crash victims, to hear. I am a licensed pilot myself and I can certainly testify to the fact that a recording of a pilot screaming while holding his mic open, most likely because he is yanking back on the control yoke in a last second, futile attempt to level his out of control aircraft, while his wife and father in-law are terrified as well, does not, in any way, contribute to aviation safety or training. Those are my thoughts.

 

I bet it was. That aircraft came in and clipped the tops off of several pine trees, hit the corner of one house, and then flew directly through the windows of the next house and exploded. Fortunately, the occupants of that house were able to escape without injury. I couldn't believe the house was able to be restored after that. Must be due to the awesome response of the firefighters on scene.

Yeah I'd like to think so lol. It was weird going in that house full of smoke and not knowing what you were going to see.

 

Watched a Cessna 310 go down on Nov 7, 2001 in Winston-Salem.

I was in FD recruit school at FTCC West Campus on Bolton Street. We were outside, at the back of the campus. He flew over and one of the guys standing beside me said, "He looks a bit low."

A few seconds later, we heard the impact.