Anyone know of any...
Class 3 FFL in Raleigh?
Rosco P
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Sheriff won't sign if thats what you are asking.
No, we (lawmen's) don't do class III to the public. Sheriff wont sign off for media reasons, however he is a big supporter of class III stuff.
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256 Posts
Get a Trust made and you wont have to worry about the Sheriff sign off. And it's a shame that a company wont deal with the public, if the Fed's & ATF say it's OK who are you to deny John Q Public?
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5,581 Posts
Trust seems like the best way. Then you can put your entire family onto the trust, instead of having to go through stupid steps whenever you leave to go to work.
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563 Posts
Understand that even with a Trust, NC law requires you also have a machine gun procession permit. NCGS 14-409 [in part reads], "manufactures, users, or possessors of such firearms for scientific or experimental purposes when such use is lawful under federal law, and where the firearm is registered with a federal agency, and where a permit for the firearm has been obtained from the local Sheriff".
Therefore, even if you are able to obtain a machine gun through a Trust or LLC and the sheriff finds out you have it he/she can confiscate the weapon under NC law. Violation is a felony. The best class 3 dealer I have run across in the state if Jeff Lawrence who also heads up the NC NFA Defense Association. He will tell you straight up if and how you can obtain a class 3 firearm.
Also, the Form 4 specifics the applicant to sign the following disclosure , the box directly above #9 on page 1 "Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, correct and complete, and that the transfer of the described firearm to the transferee and receipt and possession of it by the transferee are not prohibited by the provisions of Chapter 44....................... as amended; or provisions of State or local law. I have had two firearm attorneys tell me that this means you cannot legally own a machine gun in NC without the consent of your sheriff. Federal gun law may allow class three ownership by NC state law is much more restrictive.
So why are so many class 3 dealers selling and promoting mg sales by using Trusts as a "way to get around your sheriff"? I can only speculate, one it has been successful for them in the past and they are making money on the deal. Two, maybe the BATF agent processing the paperwork is not familiar with NC firearms laws. I'm not sure I want to spend a minimum of $5k on a gun to only violate state law, be subject to a felony, and have it confiscated but the local sheriff.
Your best bet is to get the sheriff's blessing. If he/she refuses to sign then build a coalition of firearm supporters to vote against him and put a pro-2nd sheriff in office, easier said than done. Your other option is to move to a county where the sheriff is willing to sign but not many people have the resources, job, and family flexibility to relocate so they can indulge their shooting passions.
Again check with NC NFA Defense for straight answers and run everything by a component attorney. Good luck.
Therefore, even if you are able to obtain a machine gun through a Trust or LLC and the sheriff finds out you have it he/she can confiscate the weapon under NC law. Violation is a felony. The best class 3 dealer I have run across in the state if Jeff Lawrence who also heads up the NC NFA Defense Association. He will tell you straight up if and how you can obtain a class 3 firearm.
Also, the Form 4 specifics the applicant to sign the following disclosure , the box directly above #9 on page 1 "Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, correct and complete, and that the transfer of the described firearm to the transferee and receipt and possession of it by the transferee are not prohibited by the provisions of Chapter 44....................... as amended; or provisions of State or local law. I have had two firearm attorneys tell me that this means you cannot legally own a machine gun in NC without the consent of your sheriff. Federal gun law may allow class three ownership by NC state law is much more restrictive.
So why are so many class 3 dealers selling and promoting mg sales by using Trusts as a "way to get around your sheriff"? I can only speculate, one it has been successful for them in the past and they are making money on the deal. Two, maybe the BATF agent processing the paperwork is not familiar with NC firearms laws. I'm not sure I want to spend a minimum of $5k on a gun to only violate state law, be subject to a felony, and have it confiscated but the local sheriff.
Your best bet is to get the sheriff's blessing. If he/she refuses to sign then build a coalition of firearm supporters to vote against him and put a pro-2nd sheriff in office, easier said than done. Your other option is to move to a county where the sheriff is willing to sign but not many people have the resources, job, and family flexibility to relocate so they can indulge their shooting passions.
Again check with NC NFA Defense for straight answers and run everything by a component attorney. Good luck.
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Class three items are not limited to machine guns.
Short barrel rifles, shotguns and supressors, as well as explosives etc all fall under that license as well.
Trusts are the best way to own those without the sherrif being involved at all.
Short barrel rifles, shotguns and supressors, as well as explosives etc all fall under that license as well.
Trusts are the best way to own those without the sherrif being involved at all.
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I don't think any Class III dealers are saying do trusts for machine guns. It's well known that NC requires a MG Permit for those. Most are saying do trusts for suppressors and SBRs..the things that don't require a permit.
I also don't hold the NC NFA Defense "group" in very high regard. They've side stepped every question I've ever asked them. What, exactly, are they doing to defend? They said outright that trusts are not a legal means to own NFA in North Carolina and you "should" get the Sheriff's signature for even a SBR. I don't see that requirement or any consideration given to that in the NC statutes. When I asked that question I got silence back.
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Like I said, I'd get an attorney to double check the NC law to be on the safe side. As I understand the law, silencers and SBR fall under the definition of being a "weapon of mass death and destruction" per NCGS 14-288.8. The BATF form 4 does allow the transfer of silencers and SBR, however the state law is much more restrictive. Yet again 14-288.8 does grant the possibility for "exemptions" for collectors under NCGS 14-269.
Interestingly, NCGS 14-269 is the statue that prohibits civilians from carrying concealed weapons, with the exception of handguns when a permit has been obtained from the sheriff. Furthermore, 14-269 makes no mention or provides a definition of a collector who would be exempt from NCGS 14-288.8.
I am not an attorney and quite frankly find all this legal finger-pointing to be somewhat confusing. I am reading/quoting from the Firearms Law of North Carolina by Thomas Faulk, who is a well know firearms attorney and very pro-Second Amendment. Faulk provides layman narrative throughout the book and for NCGS 14-288.8 Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction he writes: "This statute has no exception for persons authorized and licensed under federal law to have some of these weapons, such as a fully automatic firearm. There are no State cases creating or acknowledging such an exception. It is presumed that State prosecutors have taken the position that authorization under a federal law permitting such activity preempts contradictory State law". Go figure and keep in mind that NC Attorney General Roy Cooper is not know as a very pro gun guy and the NRA's evaluation which gave him a "A" rating in 2008 is in stark contrast to GRNC's rating of "0".
For my part, I obtained my FFL 03 Collector of Curios and Relics to demonstrate to local official that I have done everything I can to follow the law. I think silencers fall under the category of a curio. The good news is that there is no case law where a NC citizen was charged for breaking the law who had obtained the silencer or SBR with a Form 4 Trust.
As to the other post about dealers suggesting I obtain a trust for a mg purchase, it happened several times to me and I later discovered that several of these dealers were not all that well respected. But they assured me they were selling mg to trusts and not people. And finally, I found NC NFA to be very helpful to me during my form 4 process. For no charge, they pointed me in the right direction, answered all of my questions about how to best fill out the forms and all the little requirements like making sure I used fingerprint card FD-258 and that I also have a Certification of Compliance.
Good luck.
Interestingly, NCGS 14-269 is the statue that prohibits civilians from carrying concealed weapons, with the exception of handguns when a permit has been obtained from the sheriff. Furthermore, 14-269 makes no mention or provides a definition of a collector who would be exempt from NCGS 14-288.8.
I am not an attorney and quite frankly find all this legal finger-pointing to be somewhat confusing. I am reading/quoting from the Firearms Law of North Carolina by Thomas Faulk, who is a well know firearms attorney and very pro-Second Amendment. Faulk provides layman narrative throughout the book and for NCGS 14-288.8 Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction he writes: "This statute has no exception for persons authorized and licensed under federal law to have some of these weapons, such as a fully automatic firearm. There are no State cases creating or acknowledging such an exception. It is presumed that State prosecutors have taken the position that authorization under a federal law permitting such activity preempts contradictory State law". Go figure and keep in mind that NC Attorney General Roy Cooper is not know as a very pro gun guy and the NRA's evaluation which gave him a "A" rating in 2008 is in stark contrast to GRNC's rating of "0".
For my part, I obtained my FFL 03 Collector of Curios and Relics to demonstrate to local official that I have done everything I can to follow the law. I think silencers fall under the category of a curio. The good news is that there is no case law where a NC citizen was charged for breaking the law who had obtained the silencer or SBR with a Form 4 Trust.
As to the other post about dealers suggesting I obtain a trust for a mg purchase, it happened several times to me and I later discovered that several of these dealers were not all that well respected. But they assured me they were selling mg to trusts and not people. And finally, I found NC NFA to be very helpful to me during my form 4 process. For no charge, they pointed me in the right direction, answered all of my questions about how to best fill out the forms and all the little requirements like making sure I used fingerprint card FD-258 and that I also have a Certification of Compliance.
Good luck.
I don't see how Harrison can be a supporter of class III firearms if he won't sign off for the public to have them. I've met him, heard him speak and generally like the guy, but this one puzzles me.
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Probably just really good at telling people what they want to hear.
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482 Posts
Just remember, Sheriffs are elected, thus their public stance on things are usually in line with what would make the sheeple feel safe, regardless of their own personal feelings on the matter.
NC NFA DA Responds to NETJUNKIE and Proponents of "TRUST".
Netjunkie.. I take extreme offince to you post about. It is obvious that you have no idea what the NC NFA DA is about.
Our group was formed to try and change the draconian NC laws around ownership of NFA Items.
We have spent countless hours on the phone or in meetings with NC Senators and Represenatives. We have attended many fund raisers and Rallies trying to educate and win over Law makers and Sheriffs across the state.
We have circumvented misnomers in NC law.. were it not for us you would now be required to have a permit to get a suppressr, SBR, SBS or AOW in NC.. Cause WE are the people that got an opinion letter drafted and send from or legal advisor to the the Cheif of the ATF NFA office in DC, when they tried to lump all NFA items under the NC Machinegun permit clause of NC GS 14-409.
The advice dispenced by the NC NFA DA is probably not what you want to hear, you may not like what we have to say, but we have the time in on this subject to know what is going to bite you in the rear or get you arrested or placed in prison.
I personally have had discussions with Deupty AG John Aldridge and the then President of the NC Sheriffs Assoc. Like it or not; you have to be privey to the AG's opinion on this Subject. After all his office will be the ones that decide to prosecute you in a NFA matter.
The AG's office told the then President of the NC Sheriff's Association that "we know about the use of Trust to Circumvent NC law" "These Trust do not meet the necessary exemptions under the statutes of NC Law and these people are setting themselves up for a world of Hurt"
So I ask you NETJUNKIE.. What you want to hear is that it's OK to do a Trust cause the ATF recongnises it as being OK.. but that is not the case. The more restrictive statue rules.. in this case it is the NC Statutes of 14-288.8 and 14-409.
Don't believe it.. ask the residents of Kalifornia if state law trumps federal law on firearms law.
I am not about to blow sunshine up you butt and tell you something is OK; when I know full good and well, it is being watched, just waiting for some stool pigeon to hang himself and become an example.
The Deupty AG told me plain and simply, there is no way that he could see that a NON FFL could own an NFA item in NC UNLESS he could convince his CLEO that they complied under the 2 NC Statutes. The Buck stops with your CLEO.. Usually your Sheriff.
They are under absolutly NO obligation to sign your papers, they can say NO for any reason they choose, but plain and simple if you are not an FFL Dealer you are screwed if your CLEO won't play ball. EVEN if you ARE a FFL/SOT C2 or C3 you can NOT buy a MG without a Sheriff's Permit, there is NO exception for US either.
If you think for one Second that We are the NC NFA DA are trying to discourage NFA ownership you are Dead Wrong. WE are all C3 dealers, we make a signifigant portion of our livelyhood on C3 Sales and NO ONE on planet eart wants the NC Statutes modified more then we do.
Since the AG got on the band wagon in 1999 my business in C3 weapons has dropped 80%.. Thats why the NC NFA DA was formed to change the law. Changing the law doesn't happen quick, easy or cheaply.
I have never seen any of these armchair Commandos out walking the Halls of the General Assembly, I have never seen an offer of a Donation to help us with our expenses that are largely paid out of OUR pockets, I have never seen you do anything but ask questions that we answer honestly and frankly, and then Just because you don't like the truth, you`don't "hold the NC NFA Defense "group" in very high regard".
Well let me tell ya what.. I DON'T CARE.. We will NOT dispence information that is likely to get gun owners arrested on felony charges. If you don't like the answers, I'm sorry.. Like John Aldridge told me in 2000, if you don't like it then "CHANGE THE LAW".. well by God thats what we set out to do.
You have no clue what we do on your behalf, behind the scenes. We bust our butts so people like you can Not "hold the NC NFA Defense "group" in very high regard "
Go ahead.. Use a Trust to get a NFA item.. then try and explain your way out of it when you get popped.. Do you even know what the acceptable reasons are Under NC Law??? I doubt it.. you probably are one of those people that say "Well I don't see where TRUST are specifically illegal" No it doesn't mention Trust, it doesn't have too.. it says ALL Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction are ILLEGAL.. EXCEPT for the Following Reasons.. and then lays out a VERY narrow select few persons. Read it good.. cause the AG does.
NC GS 14-288.8 gets short read a lot.. like the Exception for COLLECTORS.. hey that's your way in, RIGHT?? WRONG.. it say LICENSED COLLECTORS, who are licensed by the STATE of NC or the FEDERAL GOV... well NC Doesn't have a Collectors license, and the Feds only have a C&R.. Hey that's your way in RIGHT?? WRONG, because it goes on to say where the ITEM in question is COVERED BY THE YOUR LICENSE.. so you can legally get only C&R Suppressors, C&R SBR'S, C&R SBS's with a C&R LEGALLY under NC Law.. but nothing else... UNLESS your Cleo thinks you meet the requirements and signs the line stating you are not violating the law..
Well that started changing when the AG's office told the Sheriff's Assoc. that they could be prosecuted right along beside you if they signed the form KNOWING that you didn't comply with the NC Statutes..
SO I say this in CLOSING NETJUNKIE.. you may not hold us in High Reguard, but how many gun lawyers have you talked to? How many conversations have you had with the NC AG's office? How Many Sheriff's have you met with? Have you done anything besides stir a bunch of false internet armchair commando rumors?
Plain and simple NFA items in NC are all but illegal with an EXTREMELY narrow band of exceptions.. I'm sorry you don't like that answer, but thats what it is.. and no one hates it more than me and my wallet.
Jeff Lawrence
President / Founder NC NFA DA
Netjunkie.. I take extreme offince to you post about. It is obvious that you have no idea what the NC NFA DA is about.
Our group was formed to try and change the draconian NC laws around ownership of NFA Items.
We have spent countless hours on the phone or in meetings with NC Senators and Represenatives. We have attended many fund raisers and Rallies trying to educate and win over Law makers and Sheriffs across the state.
We have circumvented misnomers in NC law.. were it not for us you would now be required to have a permit to get a suppressr, SBR, SBS or AOW in NC.. Cause WE are the people that got an opinion letter drafted and send from or legal advisor to the the Cheif of the ATF NFA office in DC, when they tried to lump all NFA items under the NC Machinegun permit clause of NC GS 14-409.
The advice dispenced by the NC NFA DA is probably not what you want to hear, you may not like what we have to say, but we have the time in on this subject to know what is going to bite you in the rear or get you arrested or placed in prison.
I personally have had discussions with Deupty AG John Aldridge and the then President of the NC Sheriffs Assoc. Like it or not; you have to be privey to the AG's opinion on this Subject. After all his office will be the ones that decide to prosecute you in a NFA matter.
The AG's office told the then President of the NC Sheriff's Association that "we know about the use of Trust to Circumvent NC law" "These Trust do not meet the necessary exemptions under the statutes of NC Law and these people are setting themselves up for a world of Hurt"
So I ask you NETJUNKIE.. What you want to hear is that it's OK to do a Trust cause the ATF recongnises it as being OK.. but that is not the case. The more restrictive statue rules.. in this case it is the NC Statutes of 14-288.8 and 14-409.
Don't believe it.. ask the residents of Kalifornia if state law trumps federal law on firearms law.
I am not about to blow sunshine up you butt and tell you something is OK; when I know full good and well, it is being watched, just waiting for some stool pigeon to hang himself and become an example.
The Deupty AG told me plain and simply, there is no way that he could see that a NON FFL could own an NFA item in NC UNLESS he could convince his CLEO that they complied under the 2 NC Statutes. The Buck stops with your CLEO.. Usually your Sheriff.
They are under absolutly NO obligation to sign your papers, they can say NO for any reason they choose, but plain and simple if you are not an FFL Dealer you are screwed if your CLEO won't play ball. EVEN if you ARE a FFL/SOT C2 or C3 you can NOT buy a MG without a Sheriff's Permit, there is NO exception for US either.
If you think for one Second that We are the NC NFA DA are trying to discourage NFA ownership you are Dead Wrong. WE are all C3 dealers, we make a signifigant portion of our livelyhood on C3 Sales and NO ONE on planet eart wants the NC Statutes modified more then we do.
Since the AG got on the band wagon in 1999 my business in C3 weapons has dropped 80%.. Thats why the NC NFA DA was formed to change the law. Changing the law doesn't happen quick, easy or cheaply.
I have never seen any of these armchair Commandos out walking the Halls of the General Assembly, I have never seen an offer of a Donation to help us with our expenses that are largely paid out of OUR pockets, I have never seen you do anything but ask questions that we answer honestly and frankly, and then Just because you don't like the truth, you`don't "hold the NC NFA Defense "group" in very high regard".
Well let me tell ya what.. I DON'T CARE.. We will NOT dispence information that is likely to get gun owners arrested on felony charges. If you don't like the answers, I'm sorry.. Like John Aldridge told me in 2000, if you don't like it then "CHANGE THE LAW".. well by God thats what we set out to do.
You have no clue what we do on your behalf, behind the scenes. We bust our butts so people like you can Not "hold the NC NFA Defense "group" in very high regard "
Go ahead.. Use a Trust to get a NFA item.. then try and explain your way out of it when you get popped.. Do you even know what the acceptable reasons are Under NC Law??? I doubt it.. you probably are one of those people that say "Well I don't see where TRUST are specifically illegal" No it doesn't mention Trust, it doesn't have too.. it says ALL Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction are ILLEGAL.. EXCEPT for the Following Reasons.. and then lays out a VERY narrow select few persons. Read it good.. cause the AG does.
NC GS 14-288.8 gets short read a lot.. like the Exception for COLLECTORS.. hey that's your way in, RIGHT?? WRONG.. it say LICENSED COLLECTORS, who are licensed by the STATE of NC or the FEDERAL GOV... well NC Doesn't have a Collectors license, and the Feds only have a C&R.. Hey that's your way in RIGHT?? WRONG, because it goes on to say where the ITEM in question is COVERED BY THE YOUR LICENSE.. so you can legally get only C&R Suppressors, C&R SBR'S, C&R SBS's with a C&R LEGALLY under NC Law.. but nothing else... UNLESS your Cleo thinks you meet the requirements and signs the line stating you are not violating the law..
Well that started changing when the AG's office told the Sheriff's Assoc. that they could be prosecuted right along beside you if they signed the form KNOWING that you didn't comply with the NC Statutes..
SO I say this in CLOSING NETJUNKIE.. you may not hold us in High Reguard, but how many gun lawyers have you talked to? How many conversations have you had with the NC AG's office? How Many Sheriff's have you met with? Have you done anything besides stir a bunch of false internet armchair commando rumors?
Plain and simple NFA items in NC are all but illegal with an EXTREMELY narrow band of exceptions.. I'm sorry you don't like that answer, but thats what it is.. and no one hates it more than me and my wallet.
Jeff Lawrence
President / Founder NC NFA DA
Joined
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2,306 Posts
Jeff, my apologies. I came across a good bit harsher than I meant to..I wrote it, so it's on me. To be honest, I don't know what you guys do. I, for one, would be happy to donate or put time in. Feel free to let me know what I can do to help. I think there are more of us out there that would like to help if we knew how. I'm a professional and the type of person I think we want to show has an interest in owning NFA items in NC legally and responsibly...so again, I'd be happy to help.
My "not in high regard" comment came out of conversations with other people and dealers...which I know see to be incorrect. The general message was "those guys got theirs...now they are pushing back on everyone as to not draw attention to NFA in NC.". Again, I see now that is incorrect and I apologize.
The questions I've had for you guys are really two things:
1. What is the '99 AG opinion letter mentioned on your site and other places? Can I get that or at least a paraphrase?
2. You sort of answered this in your "response" to me.
My question has always been, what gives someone that gets a Form 4 signed by their Sheriff more legal standing under NC law than someone with a trust? Going by what you said does the AG put the onus on the Sheriff to decide if a person meets one of the exemptions? If the Sheriff signs for John Doe, who is not doing R&D or another exemption, and John Doe go robs a bank is the Sheriff held accountable for anything?
The reason I ask #2 is mainly due to what I've heard from pretty reliable people. Basically, there are a lot of pro-NFA Sheriffs in NC but when a new guy gets elected he gets "a call" from the AG's office that discourages him from signing forms. I think my largest surprise is the amount of NFA dealings that go on in NC under trusts. I've talked to dealers doing 20 or more per week. That's just one or two that I've talked with. I can say without a doubt I wouldn't want to be the example case to try and change the law, but it seems that if the AG wanted to they could easily send a message. Bust one dealer doing trusts for people..even under practicing law without a license. I think that's why there is so much confusion out there for people and I know you guys have heard that many times before.
Yet again..my apologies and I have to say I'm happy to see you on this forum. I wasn't aware you were a member..or maybe I wouldn't have said what I did.
My "not in high regard" comment came out of conversations with other people and dealers...which I know see to be incorrect. The general message was "those guys got theirs...now they are pushing back on everyone as to not draw attention to NFA in NC.". Again, I see now that is incorrect and I apologize.
The questions I've had for you guys are really two things:
1. What is the '99 AG opinion letter mentioned on your site and other places? Can I get that or at least a paraphrase?
2. You sort of answered this in your "response" to me.
My question has always been, what gives someone that gets a Form 4 signed by their Sheriff more legal standing under NC law than someone with a trust? Going by what you said does the AG put the onus on the Sheriff to decide if a person meets one of the exemptions? If the Sheriff signs for John Doe, who is not doing R&D or another exemption, and John Doe go robs a bank is the Sheriff held accountable for anything?The reason I ask #2 is mainly due to what I've heard from pretty reliable people. Basically, there are a lot of pro-NFA Sheriffs in NC but when a new guy gets elected he gets "a call" from the AG's office that discourages him from signing forms. I think my largest surprise is the amount of NFA dealings that go on in NC under trusts. I've talked to dealers doing 20 or more per week. That's just one or two that I've talked with. I can say without a doubt I wouldn't want to be the example case to try and change the law, but it seems that if the AG wanted to they could easily send a message. Bust one dealer doing trusts for people..even under practicing law without a license. I think that's why there is so much confusion out there for people and I know you guys have heard that many times before.
Yet again..my apologies and I have to say I'm happy to see you on this forum. I wasn't aware you were a member..or maybe I wouldn't have said what I did.
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669 Posts
His question #2 has always been what I get hung up on. What in the statute makes a CLEO signoff transfer legal and the lack of one (trust or corporation) illegal on an ATF approved form4 transfer.
On that basis(that the Cleo route was not listed as an "approved reason to own") the way I interpreted it when I first read it was that there was NO legal way for a non-ffl to own classIII.
On that basis(that the Cleo route was not listed as an "approved reason to own") the way I interpreted it when I first read it was that there was NO legal way for a non-ffl to own classIII.
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