Then you should understand that it's safe and simple as long as it'd done correctly.

On second though...forget I said it.

Lowering the hammer on a 1911 is way dangerous and it should never even be attempted. You'll put your eye out with that thing.

 

My youngest daughter started shooting USPSA production division with a CZ75 in her early teens. She never had an issue manually lowering the hammer the 100s of times she did it.

 

One of the many reasons you ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is that sometimes things go boom when you do not want them to do so. I have had it happen twice. These two were ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES and not NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES. There is a difference. I have been lowering hammers on live chambers for decades and have never had any problems.

As far as the initial question is concerned, there is little difference between having it on half cock with a live chamber and hammer down with a live chamber. Having the hammer at half cock is not safer than having it fully lowered. Some combinations of beavertail safeties and rounded hammers make manual cocking quite awkward.

I have always carried L/C but did run an experiment with a used 1911 I just got that has an ambi safety to determine if that thumb safety would stay on as I wore it. I carried it L/C with an empty chamber for a while. It was flipped off twice on the first day. I had done the same test with my other 1911's and had never had a safety disengage.

 

One of the many reasons you ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is that sometimes things go boom when you do not want them to do so. I have had it happen twice. These two were ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES and not NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES. There is a difference. I have been lowering hammers on live chambers for decades and have never had any problems.

As far as the initial question is concerned, there is little difference between having it on half cock with a live chamber and hammer down with a live chamber. Having the hammer at half cock is not safer than having it fully lowered. Some combinations of beavertail safeties and rounded hammers make manual cocking quite awkward.

I have always carried L/C but did run an experiment with a used 1911 I just got that has an ambi safety to determine if that thumb safety would stay on as I wore it. I carried it L/C with an empty chamber for a while. It was flipped off twice on the first day. I had done the same test with my other 1911's and had never had a safety disengage.

No harm meant but it sounds like you have had 2 problems to many already >)

 

I have always carried L/C but did run an experiment with a used 1911 I just got that has an ambi safety to determine if that thumb safety would stay on as I wore it. I carried it L/C with an empty chamber for a while. It was flipped off twice on the first day. I had done the same test with my other 1911's and had never had a safety disengage

At the risk of causing screams of dire consequences...

If the thumb safety is indadvertently wiped off in the holster, the gun won't fire unless you grip it and pull the trigger. If the hammer hooks should suddenly shear off, the half-cock notch will still grab the sear and stop it. Cock an unloaded pistol and wear it around every day for a month. Unless you grip it and pull the trigger, the hammer will still be cocked when the month ends.

Now for the part that so many have trouble with.

The thumb safety wasn't put there for cocked and locked carry. It was added on request by the US Cavalry so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could safely reholster the piece and free up both hands. Even in those unenlightened days, the boys realized that a man under stress might forget to get his finger off the trigger before jamming it back into the holster. It was assumed that once the horse was under control, the cavalryman would redraw the pistol and get back to the fight.

Finally...The "locked" part of cocked and locked refers to the slide...not the hammer and not the sear. The US Cavlary's request was for a "Slide locking manual safety" to prevent the slide being pushed out of battery and possibly not returning when it was reacquired...weapons in war zones often becoming fouled with dirt and mud and the like.

 

I carry L&C. But first I made the pistol prove itself. As others have said I carried the pistol L&C for a month with no round in the chamber. In a month of daily wear I did not have any trouble and the weapon was still C&L at the end of the month. BTW I did the same thing with my Glock 23. No problem there as well. I for one did not want to take for granted that the weapon was going to do what it is suppose to do.
Once the weapon proved itself it was hot loaded and has stayed that way.

 

No harm meant but it sounds like you have had 2 problems to many already >)

Neither was with a 1911. Both were caused by the failure of a bad part in a cheap firearm. The point is that machines sometimes break and that you should always keep the muzzle pointed in a harmless direction in case something unintended and unavoidable happens.

I do realize that the thumb safety is not the only safety on a 1911 and that the pistol should not fire just because the thumb safety has been disengaged. The point is that a person nervous about carrying a 1911 a certain way should carry it that way but with an empty chamber for a while to convince himself that it is not going to fire unless he wants it to fire. I would have preferred that that extra layer of safety provided by the thumb safety had not disengaged without some intentional action by me on this particular pistol. I still carry L/C.

 

I've seen the hammer fall from both attempted two handed hammer drop and the one handed drop on a 1911; the one handed flub will cause more hand damage due to the slide ripping the thumb yet it is possible to draw a good amount of blood two handed. The 1911 is not a Colt SAA when it comes to a controlled hammer drop.

 

Let us remember this:

Disclaimer: I am NOT trying to ignite another "what condition should a 1911 be carried in" argument, I am simply asking a specific question! So Stand Down all you "cocked and lockers".

I do not understand the effective difference in carrying my RIA 1911, loaded chamber, with the hammer on half-cock as opposed to fully lowered. What is the difference, and which is preferable?

I answered that question in my first response.

Then it all went sideways by the "Cocked and Locked! The way that JMB intended!" crowd. Followed closely by the "If you lower the hammer, you'll reverse the flow of the Missouri River and kill puppies!" factions. And then, there are the:

"If you get into a firefight with your pistol in Condition 2, you're DOOOOMED!" tactical bunch.

*cough*

This is why I've distanced myself from these discussions, but it's hard to hold my tongue whenever Chicken Little insists that the sky is falling.

Even the upswept "ducktail" grip safeties can be managed should one desire to decock a 1911 if done properly. There is a problem when attempting to cock one with one of these abominations installed...but that's meat for another argum...er...discussion.

Let me go on record here. I don't advise lowering the hammer on a hot chamber either. I only note that it can be done safely, and that the gun is designed to be carried in any manner that the carrier desires...including cocked and unlocked.

Whenever I hold one of my workshops, I point these things out and demonstrate the correct way to do it rather than just stating: "Don't do it" because I know that...sooner or later...somebody is going to lower that hammer instead of obeying my directives as though they were the word of God. It's inevitable. It's human nature.

Be careful. Is gun. Gun not safe.

And I'm out.

 

If you'd like, I can demonstrate.

For my part, I do not rely wholly on my thumb riding the hammer down. I insert the index finger of my left hand between the hammer and frame, and THEN slowly lower the hammer with my right thumb.

Disclaimer: I am NOT trying to ignite another "what condition should a 1911 be carried in" argument, I am simply asking a specific question! So Stand Down all you "cocked and lockers".

Wasted my time typing that........oh well.....

 

I'm curious; why do you carry it half cocked?

Simple. It's the way I prefer to carry, my gun, my choice kinda deal. Nobody has ever given me what I consider a sufficiently valid reason to not. If Tuner suggested I'd carry hammer down, I would do so. To others I mostly turn a deaf ear.

For the record, I open carry my RIA everyday for work.

 

Simple. It's the way I prefer to carry, my gun, my choice kinda deal.

You're certainly entitled to the gun any way that you want. Do you feel that is a safer, faster, etc method of carry? I'm just curious if you've compared it to other methods of carry.

Nobody has ever given me what I consider a sufficiently valid reason to not.

Off the top of my head, having to cock the hammer before being able to fire a gun tends to make it a slower method of operation compared to other methods. Also, the pulling back of the hammer compromises your grip, makin git easier for someone to take the gun out of your hand or for you to simply lose control and drop it during the cokcing operation. Finally, and this would be a subset of the first point, it takes longer to gain a solid firing grip on the gun.

Just some things to consider.

 

Do you feel that is a safer, faster, etc method of carry?

I'd not say it's necessarily "safer", but I surely do not consider carrying it hammer down to be "less safe". I'd would, however, venture a guess that its more common for someone to find that the safety on their 1911 had inadvertently disengaged that that their hammer had inadvertently became cocked.
As far as faster, my draw is rather slow and deliberate, the time to cock the hammer is not, IMO, a significant period of time as I expect it will "get done" well before the gun is actually in position to fire. More than that however, the draw and cock approach seems very natural to me and I'm comfortable with it.
That being said, if I owned a 1911 with a long beavertail I'd likely carry C&L as thumbing the hammer is a lot more difficult for me. I do not have that problem with the RI.

Just some things to consider.

I appreciate you bringing them up!

 

I'd would, however, venture a guess that its more common for someone to find that the safety on their 1911 had inadvertently disengaged that that their hammer had inadvertently became cocked.

Which really wouldn't make a difference unless you pull the trigger on the draw. In the holster, the grip safety still blocks the trigger and the half-cock will still grab the sear in the unlikely event that both hammer hooks were to shear completely off.

Cock an unloaded 1911 and carry it in a holster with the safety off for a month. Unless you grip the pistol and pull the trigger...at the end of the month, it'll still be cocked.

Incidentally...

The safety does not lock the hammer, nor will it block the hammer. The "locked" part of Cocked and Locked refers to the slide...not the hammer and not the sear.

Even if the thumb safety is engaged...if the sear were to suddenly disintegrate into fine powder, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb.

And, before it comes up...

I did a demo once in which I used a Dremel cut-off wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch of the sear crown, along with the hammer hooks. I thumbed the hammer back and released it. The half-cock caught it. Then, out of sheer curiosity, I installed a good hammer with the damaged sear. The hammer not only held full cock, it fired and functioned normally for over 30 rounds before it started to follow the slide...and the half-cock caught it every time.

 

From my Kimber manual..

HAMMER SAFETY STOP
The hammer safety stop is a notch on the hammer
which prevents it from falling fully forward in the
event of primary sear notch failure. It also prevents
the hammer from hitting the firing pin should your
fingers slip from the slide or hammer while cocking
the pistol, provided the hammer has been moved
past the stop. The safety stop is not a manual
safety! Do not under any circumstances use the
safety stop as a "half cock" position. This misuse
can result in damage to the sear, and/or
unintentional discharge of the pistol

 

The safety stop is not a manual
safety! Do not under any circumstances use the
safety stop as a "half cock" position. This misuse
can result in damage to the sear, and/or
unintentional discharge of the pistol

As long as the half-cock notch in question is the original captive design...John Browning himself would beg to differ. All of his other exposed hammer guns were designed to use the half-cock as a safety, including the Winchester Model 92 and 94 carbines, and the Model 97 shotgun.

In the 1910 patents...before the thumb safety was added...he described it as the "Safety Position" and gave instructions on how to lower it to that position with one hand.

The addition of the thumb safety negated the use of the half cock as a safety, but it is a safety. These things are right there in the original patents.

With the captive half-cock notch, the sear and hammer are interlocked, and the entire trigger/fire control group is effectively disabled. Pulling the trigger can't move the sear, and the hammer can't fall. If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

 

Would anybody go so far as to say the half-cock notch will not fail and make the 1911 an unsafe weapon? I say it has failed numerous times thus one of many reasonings to carry the the firearm otherwise.

 

With the captive half-cock notch, the sear and hammer are interlocked, and the entire trigger/fire control group is effectively disabled. Pulling the trigger can't move the sear, and the hammer can't fall. If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

Pardon my lack of knowledge here. I just picked up my first Colt Series 80. Does your quote above mean that if the gun is at half cock position, I shouldn't be able to pull the trigger and have the hammer fall to fully lowered position? It seems when I have this pistol on a half cock, I can still pull the trigger (with grip safety depressed) and the hammer drops.

I may have misunderstood your quote though. Thanks!

 

The Series 80 pistols don't have the original half-cock notch on the hammers. It's a flat shelf...more of a quarter-cock. It's purely and simply a hammer arrest, and yes...pulling the trigger will drop the hammer, but it won't fire the pistol.

 

Thank you for that clarification.

 

If the potential failure of a part was the criteria for not carrying a gun in a particular way, we would all have to carry unloaded guns because any part has the potential to fail.

Is gun. Gun not safe.

Would anybody go so far as to say the half-cock notch will not fail and make the 1911 an unsafe weapon?

Define "fail."

You can leave it on half-cock for a century and the gun won't fire.

You can leave it cocked/safety "OFF" for a century and the gun won't fire unless somebody picks it up and pulls the trigger.

You can leave it loaded/hammer down for a century and the gun won't fire unless somebody picks it up...cocks the hammer...and pulls the trigger.

The hammer can follow to half-cock an indeterminate number of times, and the notch will retain its integrity.

Assuming the original captive half-cock notch and a machined barstock hammer, you can pull the trigger until the trigger stirrup bends or breaks...and the gun won't fire.

See...the lockwork just ain't that fragile.

As to that...who would place one on half-cock or on-safe and start pulling the trigger with enough force to break something other than in the attempt to "prove" that the gun is unsafe? Really. Why would anybody do that?

If placed on half-cock and dropped...should the gun hit the ground muzzle up...the grip safety tang would take the brunt of the fall. If full-cocked, the hammer would be forced away from the firing pin...not toward it.

I say it has failed numerous times thus one of many reasonings to carry the the firearm otherwise.

How many half cocks have you personally seen fail and cause the gun to discharge? I've been messin' with 1911s since 1963, and I've never seen it happen. Not to say that it hasn't...but just that it's just not an everyday occurrence.

You're grasping at straws in the attempt to foster your beliefs on us, and convince us that the pistol shouldn't be carried with a loaded chamber.

John Browning wasn't an idiot. Try to wrap your head around that.

 

What's considered safe by some will not be by others. Nobody is an idiot in the design field of firearms except those that claim their's is the safest, Browning didn't but through pressure did address the issue to extremes. He did a great job with the 1911 yet be that as it may numerous accidents finally convinced the military to carry the 1911 with a full magazine and a empty chamber for a reason, that being safety. This the only way to carry the 1911 safely, the 1911 is not fool proof but it is as close as it gets until the fool pulls the slide back and releases it to chamber a round then all bet's are off. As for the use of the half-cock, I could care less as I will only carry a 1911 as previously prescribed by the folks in the green suits. Those that argue that it is too slow to get into action need to take a look at the fastest drawn weapon to date, that being a Colt SAA, which is carried the same as the military 1911, chamber empty and hammer down. The only difference in firing is with the 1911 the slide has the be actuated rather than the highly exposed hammer of the Colt SAA, either way one hand does the readying while the other aims from the grip. Those that do care empty understand what am writing about and those that choose to do otherwise have my blessings as well, just don't cry on my shoulder when the great Browning design gives you a hard lesson in gun safety.

 

be that as it may numerous accidents finally convinced the military to carry the 1911 with a full magazine and a empty chamber for a reason, that being safety. This the only way to carry the 1911 safely

With respect,
1- did the military really require that the 1911 be carried in combat with an empty chamber, or is this more like a base thing where most weapons are made extra-safe?

2- numerous accidents with the 1911 or just numerous accidents with small arms? How do we know?

3- just for fun, it is absolutely not the only way to carry the 1911 safely, in fact it is not even in the top 5 most safe ways (I just made that up, but let's see if I can deliver):
Empty chamber, empty mag
Empty chamber, no mag
Loaded chamber, no firing pin in pocket.
Barrel in one pocket, hammer and firing pin in the other, the rest in a holster
Empty chamber, loaded mag, MSH in pocket
Loaded, cocked, thumb safety engaged, frozen in a 20lb block of ice
I suppose there are an infinite number of way to carry a 1911 that are safer than on an empty chamber, but seriously we're talking about a minuscule amount of incremental risk between cocked & locked and empty chamber, and if you're considering equipment failure as a significant portion of that then I think you are mistaken.

Having said that, my nightstand gun is loaded with an empty chamber. It makes me feel better just in case I forget it first thing when I get up and the kids are running around (has never happened, btw)

Whatever makes you happy, just offering a counterpoint to help others make their own decisions.

Jim

 

1- did the military really require that the 1911 be carried in combat with an empty chamber, or is this more like a base thing where most weapons are made extra-safe?

He's still grasping at straws, Jim.

US Military doctrine has always mandated an empty chamber unless and until action is imminent...whether the weapon is a pistol, rifle, sub machinegun, or a 105 howitzer. Anybody who has served as a combat rifleman is familiar with the term: "Line of departure. Lock and load" and what it means.

 

JimB when it comes to combat questions you'll be better served asking the mighty combat veteran Tuner which in this case he has aptly answered. My reasoning for praising the carry of an empty chambered 1911 is to keep those folks from making the mistakes of those before them. There is plenty of documented evidence of the 1911's abilities to do harm to it's supposed master by those that carry with the chamber loaded but I think you will be hard pressed to find a discharge of round by a empty chambered 1911. If it is facts that you will demand from me to provide, that ain't likey to happen, I'm too old and lazy to care. As for you Tuner, you should teach drama. Grasping, really?