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I may need to change to the lighter spring on mine, I noticed a few FTFs at the range with light loads. I also spent some time trying to figure out the POi on this gun and it definitly seems to shoot some to the right, much like my glocks seemd to shoot left (all off a rest), an easy fix though. I am going to order the Dawson thin FO front sight as this factory one seems too wide. I am also contemplating going with an Apex sear and RAM to drop the pull weight down a pound or so. I too have noticed the mag well wear. The mag change issue is a double edged sword for me compared to my Glock. The mag definitly releases much easier and faster than the Glock, but the mag well is smaller, so reinserting the mag is slower, practice will help that. Be sure and bench test your gun as my internet searches have shown many Pros to have accuracy issues at 15-25 yards, but most seem to like the heavier bullits better than light ones.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
I'd definitely recommend the lighter spring if you are shooting loads under 130PF. Ditto on the front sight as well, a narrower front blade is rapidly moving up my list at this point. As well with the magwell opening, that was my first thought when I picked it up; it is what it is; I believe long term the pluses will outweigh the minuses for me as a lefty. I will see about testing bench accuracy sometime.
 
Discussion starter · #43 ·
I had a good weekend with the M&P. Got about 520 rounds between a club match, and practice on Sunday, and I like the way everything is heading. Accuracy ratio at the match was the best I have shot with this gun so far; most of the shots were easy but it was a good confidence builder none the less. I also got some really good reloads in on Sunday, and ran a couple FAST drills on par with the best I ever did with the Glock. Having the confidence that the slide will drop on schedule makes all the difference on the reload. I just wish the magwell were a little bigger.

I also did a little "accuracy testing"... keeping in mind I can't shoot groups that are up to typical internet standards, I fired 10 rounds of my regular match load (PD 147gr) at 25 yards, using my regular freestyle grip, seated at a table with my grip resting on a sandbag. 7 of the ten were in a group of about 2" or so, with three "flyers" about 1-2 inches outside of that. A narrower front blade might eventually help with this. This is not any different than what I would expect to do with the Glock.

I plan to shoot a group with Berry's plated 147s also when I get a chance, possibly on Saturday.
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
For me right now:

3.8x = fast (did this really only once that I remember with the Glock, twice in a row with the M&P yesterday)

3.9x = decent/good
4.0x = average
4.1x+ = hopefully bobbled something or dropped a point(s)

Also, I cheat on it a little, and just shoot at the entire head of an IDPA target; one of these days I will bring a notecard and shoot at that as the drill is actually supposed to be run.

If I really have confidence that the slide will drop on the reload, I'm already finding that I spend about .15 less time evaluating whether it dropped or not, and that amount of time is coming off of a smooth reload at this point.

I like the FAST drill as it works a number of different things within a quick 6 rounds. Scoring on it overall of course comes down to the draw and reload.
 
that is really good. I have only read about it on the Pistol-training site and it seems like a great drill for IDPA type shooting. I would like to go to one of his courses some time or maybe the Rogers Shooting school in GA. Both put an emphasis on fast accurate shooting. Glad the accuracy on the M&P looks good on your gun. I was going to shoot mine at the recent bowling pin match but got a squib in the practice bay so I used my 17
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
that is really good. I have only read about it on the Pistol-training site and it seems like a great drill for IDPA type shooting. I would like to go to one of his courses some time or maybe the Rogers Shooting school in GA. Both put an emphasis on fast accurate shooting. Glad the accuracy on the M&P looks good on your gun. I was going to shoot mine at the recent bowling pin match but got a squib in the practice bay so I used my 17
Thanks, I have been running it at almost every practice for a little while now. The splits can be done by many; it is all about the draw and the reload. I am hoping to get to where I can match Sevigny's "record" times (at least occassionally), but .3 seconds is really an eternity in this drill. The draw is the biggest shortcoming for me right now.
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
I had a weekend of mixed results with the M&P.

-Positive: I shot a match with good quality stages and had an average day accuracy-wise, so that is a step in the right direction.

-Negative: I had a stage-killing jam very similar to what was happening with my Glock right before I figured out I had to replace the magazine springs with extra power ones. Of course Murphy's Law or whatever dictates that it can only happen during a live stage, so I never get a really good look at what has gone wrong. Slide stuck about halfway between fully open and fully closed, fired case still still sitting in the action, but pulling on the slide, nothing will budge while the mag is seated. I REALLY wish this would happen in practice someday. Solution is to forcefully strip the magazine out and go to a new one.

My opinion, the factory M&P mag springs are too weak. I thought this the first time I ever picked one up. Since there seem to be no other options I might try stuffing a couple of the Arrendondo springs in there and see if they will work with flush fit baseplates.
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
It looks like I gave ~$625 for mine back in March. I do recall that my dealer had to call around and was only able to locate the the single one that I ended up buying, and I've heard from other people that they are not always the easiest to find. Not sure why that would be, other than I would guess the 5" (Pro/9L) are probably their lowest volume variants overall.
 
I saw none at the local show this weekend, however, if you go to GunsAmerica, there are several for sale. I actually bought one last week with the bare stainless slide but a day after I gave him my info he informed me it had already sold. He did cancell my CC payment so I do not think any funny business was going on. As far as the mag spring goes, could you stretch the spring a bit and get the desired effect? also, do you think it might still be more of an ammo problem? I would think that the problem with weak springs would be feeding issues and yours seemed to be a failure to fully eject the round after the slide did not forcefully go back. I know you went to the weaker recoil spring, but mine did the same thing when shooting low power rounds, but so did my G34. I have now gone to 4.3 gr N320 and no FTE problems yet. Still good shooting Saturday despite the 4 second drop because of the gun issue.
 
I thought i was going to have difficulty as well finding a pro, but my LGS found me one. I bought it a week and a half ago and it had been test fired at the factory 4 weeks before that. So my guess is as they come from S&W, they are sold quickly.

I shot with it at my first IDPA match last Saturday and did not have a single problem with the pistol. I on the other hand will have to spend more time shooting it to get the feel and point of aim right.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
Slide has plenty of rearward velocity with the 13lb spring... it is a notable drop in weight. Really the biggest reason for the recoil spring is that the sights stay a little flatter on the return to battery.

Timer said it was right at 5 sec = same as a HNT, FTN, etc.
I am not claiming to have all the answers in this situation, because I can tell you that there are elements of my perception that I would frankly find hard to believe if someone else were dictating them to me. So with that caveat…
I don’t believe it is anything other than the magazine springs, basically by process of elimination.

-Extractor: very slim chance. I replaced my Glock extractor and extractor spring at the same time as the mag springs out of an abundance of caution, but by then the factory extractor had 10k rounds on it, and problems would have presented before then. I don’t know what the typical service life of the extractor is, but I bet it is well beyond 10k rounds. It is a pretty beefy part, and mine looked to be in fine shape when I changed it out. In the case of the M&P, it is barely broken in at 2500rds.

-Short stroke: I am basically certain this is not it. Granted, 128pf ammo is not exactly +p, but it isn’t quite as “mouse fart” as everyone jokes about either. With a clean gun, it ran fine in both the Glock and M&P in my hands with the factory recoil spring. With the M&P, introducing limp wristing on top of everything else finally pushed it over the edge to short stroke. 13lb spring is a noticeable significant drop in weight. With the Glock, and my dirty powder, I would start to get occasional short strokes at ~450rds with no cleaning. I have run the M&P up to 450 without cleaning a couple times, and it hasn’t short stroked yet, even though the slide is notably sluggish. The mystery jams in all cases have occurred with a ****-n-span clean gun literally within the first 20 rounds after cleaning. Besides that (and I really have no explanation for this without a chance to really look at the jam) there is a partially fed live round in the action. When the stuck mag is ripped out, the slide closes on a live round. That is what I remember with the Glock, and that is exactly what happened yesterday; confirmed by my recollection, that of the SO, and in reviewing the video. I can see in the video that the empty case drops on the ground during my initial “racking” phase, while I’m figuring out that the slide is stuck in a middle position. I rip out and drop the old mag, seat new mag, and shoot right away.

-Mag springs: There is a just a good bit of circumstantial evidence. I use the same three mags all the time. In the Glock, the problem cropped up at one year of use, and the mag springs were notably weaker than that of a NIB mag that had been sitting on the shelf for that year. Changed them out, along with the already noted parts, for +power units, and never had it happen again. The just-broken-in M&P factory springs feel like the Glock springs after a year of use. Another thing, I believe that the upcoming round in the mag/follower plays some role in ejection. I have not run this test with the M&P, but with the Glock, firing it with no magazine in it would result in the empty case falling out the magwell as often as it going out the side.
My instinct just says mag springs given all the available information. I’ll be trying out a few different things very early next year…
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
I test fit a Glock mag spring in an M&P mag last night, and it looks like the only thing that isn't perfect right out of the box is that the little bent tip of the spring that fits into the follower to hold it to the spring in the M&P mag is a little further back on the Glock spring. I don't believe this spring-to-follower retention is really needed at all for proper function, so I think the next step is going to be to order up some fresh ISMI +power G17 springs, clip off those bent tips, install them, and see how they work out in practice. I will post some results sometime next year.
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
Well I got some Glock ISMI mag springs in and just ruined a pair of wire cutters trying to clip off the top part of the follower-engaging coil. I don't know what they do to these suckers, but they are HARD.

After the first feeding problem I changed the originals out for new factory ones and have not had a problem since, so maybe I will just stick to changing the factory ones a lot more often for now.

I also had a light strike over the weekend, that fired on the second strike when I fed the round back through. This is a little curious. I won't discount that it could very easily be the ammo. I've been through almost 15K of these Wolf/Tula primers between this gun and my Glock (both with stock triggers) and this is the first light strike I have ever had with them. I use them because they are the cheapest on the market and work in my guns, but I suppose 1 in 15k that has a slightly thicker cup, etc, would not surprise me. Or I could have somehow left the primer a little high when loading... etc. I will chalk it up as an ammo anomoly for now. If it starts to occur with any degree of regularity I will replace the striker spring. I might do that anyway since match season is starting up for me in less than a month.

It is hard to estimate the number of trigger pulls on the gun now, but I'm going to guess on average that I do 2 to 3 dry fires for each live fire. That would be 6 - 9k trigger pulls total. Once again, if the spring is going that would be mighty early compared to the Glock. I'm guessing the trigger break now has dropped to somewhere in the 4lb neighborhood, keeping in mind I have no gauge to confirm.
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
I have had a handful of light strikes total so far, all with Tula primers. What I have done is order some Federal primers to use for sanctioned match ammo. I have run about 1300 of them so far with zero issues.

I also detail cleaned the frame for the first time last night (round count is 8800). As expected it was dirty but functioning fine. Assembly/disassembly is a little more of a PITA than a glock, due to the roll pins and more complicated trigger system (did not take apart the sear block) but just make sure you have a soft mallet and punch of the right size and it is not too bad at all. The trickiest part of reassembling the frame is getting the front loop of the trigger return spring onto the trigger pin. I ended up using a bent paper clip to feed it on there. Good lighting is needed as well to see what you are doing under the locking block.

One word to the wise, for anyone with a non-internal-lock model: The plug that fills that hole in the frame is pretty much just loose after you pull out the sear block, much like the ejector, it can just fall out. I did not realize this until I started flushing out the frame with hot water and mine jumped out and went down the food disposer in the sink. Given I have a match to shoot Friday, this was of great immediate concern, but I ended up getting in there with a flashlight and pliers and retrieved it. Just know it might dissappear if you are not looking for it.

Same with the wire that retains the takedown lever. Once you pull the locking block out, there is nothing holding it in place and it is very small; I dropped it an had to go looking with a flashlight to find it.

Removing the extractor to clean requires a different size punch. I am planning to do this next week.

Also, now that it has a few more rounds through it I agree with Chuck... this gun is a rattle trap compared to a Glock of the same ballpark round count.

That is all for now...
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Had a new kind of malfunction over the weekend that I have never seen in all my years of shooting pistols.

It was mid-stage in a match in NC, and I went to do a "tac load" (involves retaining a partially empty magazine) and as I was stuffing the mag into my waistband I could hear ammo rattling around lose in the mag. When I finished the stage and examined the mag, the follower had become stuck in the slot in the mag body that engages the mag catch in the pistol. If I had needed to take one more shot from that magazine, it would have been an FTFeed, and a costly one, because my first action of racking it would not have fixed it.

I am going to keep shooting with that mag through July to see if it recurs, but even if it does not, will probably replace the followers before my August matches as a precautionary measure.
 
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