Will this match be a USPSA 'style' match or a match following the rules in the current rulebook? Muzzle over the berm during reloads will be allowed, I assume?

 

Jeff Cooper's Four Rules:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

I thought about this finally found the above rules. Given these rules, how can pointing the muzzle over the berm be considered safe?

 

So, are you saying that you are banning reloads with muzzle over the berm?

 

Yes as it is an unsafe direction and I am not willing to destroy anything over the berm.

 

3.3 "... host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction."

Good luck with your match. No serious uspsa shooter will shoot it.

 

All I am asking for is some consideration for our situation. Do I want to DQ or assign a penalty to anyone - no. All I am asking is out of appreciation for all the work and time we put into matches that do your best to avoid pointing over the berm. I don't want anyone injured or any property damaged. I am sure if there were an accident, I am going to be part of a lawsuit.

 

Will these be sanctioned matches? I understand your dilemma but a uspsa match that does not follow the rules of uspsa is pretty much a nonstarter. I appreciate all the work you have put into this.

 

They will be sanctioned matches.

 

I was really hoping a match would start up at CPRC, but it is going to be very hard to run a high paced action pistol match with a limitation like that (not discounting the reason for it) but it will be the cause of a lot of range rule level DQs and there is little doubt the club won't be able to run sactioned USPSA matches enforcing that rule.

That said, maybe steel challenge would be more in line with the clubs limitations?

 

Guys I've been monitoring this situation closely and have had several behind the scenes conversations with the people trying to start this match. This is a traditionally conservative club that has some members resistant to our fast style of shooting and movement, believing it at face value to be unsafe. Obviously the stellar record of USPSA shows otherwise but it has been a big job for Mike and Tom just to get this far in the process. Rest assured though that if this match does get going it Will be run by the USPSA rule set with no exceptions. What they may be asking for is just extra consideration and caution as we, the face of USPSA, introduce others to the sport.

 

it Will be run by the USPSA rule set with no exceptions.

So, are you saying that you are banning reloads with muzzle over the berm?

Yes

These two statements are contradictory. If the first one is correct, cool, no problem. We're just trying to understand what the situation is.

 

Col. M. That is a question I would suggest you ask Troy McManus at dnroi@uspsa.org. You should decide based on his answer how you'd like to proceed before we continue the affiliation process

 

Col. M. That is a question I would suggest you ask Troy McManus at dnroi@uspsa.org. You should decide based on his answer how you'd like to proceed before we continue the affiliation process

I already contacted him and I am waiting for his response.

 

You're really selling me on this sport with the attitude. Is this what I can expect to see at a match as well?

 

uhh, yea. I will expect the rules to be followed if it is a sanctioned match. Dont worry I wont be a dick about it, I will just leave. it isnt a big deal to me what ever you guys choose to do. I just want to make it clear, before you continue or start your affiliation with uspsa. because trying to institute local rules will get you alot of flack the day of the match.

 

Hum, I shot almost all the NRA Action pistol matches at the CR&PC and never heard one word about reloads.

Tom

 

Were the pistols pointing over the berm? I know this was a significant issue when three-gun was mentioned. If the club is cool with it, then so am I. As long as I have liability insurance, I am covered.

 

Muzzle up is not considered a safe direction at any match I have attended anywhere in the Charlotte area. Not sure why this gets your panties in a bind. The meme was a very nice touch though - I consider myself properly flamed and I will now go hang my head in shame.

 

10 round stages, problem solved...

 

Muzzle up is not considered a safe direction at any match I have attended anywhere in the Charlotte area. Not sure why this gets your panties in a bind. The meme was a very nice touch though - I consider myself properly flamed and I will now go hang my head in shame.

the problem with it that I see is it will be a subjective call , people will not be happy about being DQ'd by a rule that isn't in the rule book. it is hard to make that call in the IDPA match at Meck. in USPSA there are more mag changes ( up to 5 per stage in production ) and they happen faster than in IDPA.

 

Troy is at SHOT show and there is a BOD meeting this weekend.
This was discussed on Enos and USPSA forums before and USPSA sanctioning was withheld.

 

Troy's reply may be delay was my point.....

 

Is it possible to hold an action shooting match where there is a reasonable expectation that a round will not go over the berm?
You can set any rule or expectation you like, but given the nature of:
1) Match pressure
2) Time based scoring
3) any nimrod with 20 bucks can come and shoot at least once

the probability that you're gonna get one launched over the berm are extremely high over a reasonable length of time.

Don't hold any of these matches if your club is at-risk. There are now a ton of places to shoot practical pistol events.

 

1) Match pressure
2) Time based scoring
3) any nimrod with 20 bucks can come and shoot at least once

#3 could be changed without compromising the competitive aspect of the sport. I don't like the idea of having to be qualified to shoot matches at certain clubs, but if it's that or the match doesn't happen at all, I'll take that option. I know IPSC in Canada has a "black badge" program similar to this that's required for competition at certain levels. I'm afraid I don't know the specifics, though.

 

No matter how this turns out, and I hope it happens, I want to offer my thanks to Col. Mortimer for taking the time from his life to try and make this match a reality. Obviously I agree that saying a mag change, with muzzle over the berm is not allowed, is no Bueno. In the end, it will not be our call.

Catfish, I don't think anyone was really jumping on Mike but I do think that they fail to realize the time that he has invested in this endeavor and that he definitely deserves a thank you. That is my opinion anyway.

Another uspsa match in the area would be great and maybe alleviate some of the congestion at rowan and Statesville. The problem however with crpc is two fold. The controlling members seem to be a little stodgy and there are houses within a few hundred yards over the SW berm. Having a ND over the berm is a legitimate concern. If the leadership from uspsa says that they can have the exception, I will shoot it. If they say no, I guess I won't. Maybe 2 gun would be a better option, then you can make the rules and I personally would rather have another 2 gun match anyway.

Peace out bisches.

 

No matter how this turns out, and I hope it happens, I want to offer my thanks to Col. Mortimer for taking the time from his life to try and make this match a reality. Obviously I agree that saying a mag change, with muzzle over the berm is not allowed, is no Bueno. In the end, it will not be our call.

Catfish, I don't think anyone was really jumping on Mike but I do think that they fail to realize the time that he has invested in this endeavor and that he definitely deserves a thank you. That is my opinion anyway.

Another uspsa match in the area would be great and maybe alleviate some of the congestion at rowan and Statesville. The problem however with crpc is two fold. The controlling members seem to be a little stodgy and there are houses within a few hundred yards over the SW berm. Having a ND over the berm is a legitimate concern. If the leadership from uspsa says that they can have the exception, I will shoot it. If they say no, I guess I won't. Maybe 2 gun would a better option, then you can make the rules and I personally would rather have another 2 gun match anyway.

Peace out bisches.

Thank you for posting my concerns.
Paul...

 

Jeff Cooper's Four Rules:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

I thought about this finally found the above rules. Given these rules, how can pointing the muzzle over the berm be considered safe?

 

Given the height of our berms, this reload would not be above the berm.

 

I am waiting to hear from a higher up on this issue. Maybe all this will be an non-issue.

 

Thanks Col M for getting this going. I hope that it works out. This would the closest club with a USPSA match to where I live so I hope that you can get it all sorted out. If you do end up getting sanctioned and the matches follow the rules, I'd be glad to help out

 

I think the berms are 20' tall, from what I've heard. The way most people reload, I really think this is a non issue. The big thing would be making sure the RO is making the call on finger in the trigger well. I've sent a couple of guys home with a dq for this. When they come back, the issue has been resolved.

Mike, I'll step up and volunteer to be MD if you can get it sanctioned. I think with a good safety meeting, which would emphasize the existing rules, you can have a very safe match using every bay. An 8 or 10 stage local match would be awesome! I'll pm you my phone number. I think you may still Have my old one.

 

I will not be stepping forward because I don't want to run the match, that is for better people than myself.

What a cop out on this one. You need to get your scrawny little butt out and contribute something more than tearing up the grass at local matches! I know the hours that you work and the hours that you spend on practice. You need to at least come up with some stage designs you little Crack squirrel. And stop with the hip thrusts in your videos.!

 

And stop with the hip thrusts in your videos.!

Fess up. It's cause you couldn't stop watching.

 

How has the reload/berm issue been working out with IDPA matches that y'all been having?

 

We have run the IDPA matches with no problems. I don't remember seeing anyone doing a reload with a pistol pointed in the air so it has not been an issue. I ran an introduction to USPSA / IDPA and suggested reloads but done will muzzle pointing at berm. No one had a problem with it. I didn't think this was such a big deal. Guess I was wrong.

 

The higher-ups have decided to fix the surface in the bays before we start matches. I do not know how long this will take but the club has sought out contractors to perform the work. The surface will be rock dust over a heavy fabric that will prevent the clay from coming up through the rock dust. It should be the best possible surface. Additionally, it shows the club is committed to matches and making this a first class facility. I am sure the other issues can be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

 

that is the best news yet. a huge step in the right direction.

 

That should help them a lot.